Question for Christian members

[Muslimah]

Bismillah:


Ok, but what are these "ways"? I mean did God reveal to His people the proper 'ways' of worshipping Him? Or He just left them invent the ways they desire?


Any verses from the Bible will be appreciated.


Salam


Wael.

Moreover, u are actually equating the diversity of creation with how we can worship Allah.


U mean to say, just because God created diversified items, human beings can worship God the way they like. Nothing was determined from their God as guideline to follow. Thus, there is no concrete text to tell you how to worship God and explain what we see today.


Waiting to continue

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam Curious,


Thank you very much for taking such time and effort to address Wael's and my inquiries.


However, I have more, but I will still raise them under the questions for Christians thread, to keep things in one place. I will also merge this thread over there Insh aAllah.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam


“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."


As the advent of Jesus was a significant incident in the humanity course, how come God didn’t even refer to it, or prepared mankind to accept it quite ahead. Why did god wait so long from Adam to Moses to take this step without any previous notification.


Let us assume your view is correct of Jesus being the only son of God (may Allah forgive me). It means that God had a son, as a result of any miraculous manner fine I understand, God sent His ONLY son to mankind. To do what? to call for worshiping God, am I not right? So the aim is to have the creation (mankind) believe in God (Obviously they did not) Who is a God? One of Super power, One Who is free of all needs and wants, One Who can do anything at any time. Does this God need His creation's compassion? No He does not.


But this same God still Sends His only son to mankind - who went astray - to bring them back to the correct path. Not only this, but also He sacrifices His only son to eliminate their sins and grant them salvation.


Now what did this creation deserve? They deserved punishment for being astray.


Instead God being so loving to His own creation sacrifices His son. This makes the creation to God more important than His son. Whereas a God needs neither to beg his creation nor to force them to worship Him. But rather the creation needs much to worship God. Worshiping God is being in touch with Him. Now again, back to the main theme. Fine God decided He loves His creation more than His only son, He sacrifices the son. Of course He was able to save him on the cross but He decided not to. Still remains people who didnt believe in Him the way He wants them to believe who are Jews and Muslims, right? Leave alone that the act of sacrifice conflicts with the nature of a God.


Which makes this major sacrifice in vain. Which also puts many question marks about God of how to handle situations. Isnt this demeaning for a God image? Didnt God have a more effective and powerful way adequate to His Super nature to teach us to believe in Him? I know the sacrifice was to eliminate the sins. What about the sins committed by Christians nowadays, like murder, stealing, rape or whatever. Or this sacrifice was to cover even such acts.


Again for the point of having a son. regardless of the manner this son was created, having a son implies parenthood feelings. How can a God have parenthood feelings? A God in my view must be totally different from the creation. It makes one so comfortable and safe to know that our Lord is of a Supernatural power and Being. Having a son annuls all this.


As Jesus is part of God, 2nd of trinity, does this imply that he has been always there? I assume yes. As I understand from curuious, that each part of God has a set of duties that they coordinate and each morning they are in harmony about who does what? Now this is very interesting. When Jesus was on the cross, no when jesus was a baby still breast feeding, did he delegate his duties to someone else? Who was in charge to take them over? Or those duties were not then fulfilled. How was the universe managed under such situation? If when he was a baby or on the cross, helpless, or in the grave before his claimed resurrection, was not assuming his duties, it does take away his divinity. In case his duties were carried out by the father or the holy spirit, this also makes him less divine that the other two parts of godhead.


More important, if his birth was miraculous and meant to be so, don’t u think that it would have been more effective if he showed up as already a grown up man. I mean why to start as a baby. The whole objective was to stress that fact that he is god incarnate. This should have been performed in a super miraculous fashion in order to attain this objective.

[Curious Christian]

As the advent of Jesus was a significant incident in the humanity course, how come God didn’t even refer to it, or prepared mankind to accept it quite ahead.

God did prepare mankind for it. The Old Testament is about Jesus. The need for Jesus. The perfect lamb of God. The King of the Jews.


God first prepares humankind for the Messiah in Genesis 3:15:


<b>And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.</b>


Here are other examples about God refering to the Messiah thousands of years before his resurrection.


<b>1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger</b>


Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:


A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."


New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:


In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."


<b>2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem</b>


Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:


"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."


New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:


After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...


<b>3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah</b>


Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:


This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:


"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."


New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):


Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).


<b>4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt</b>


Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:


Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.


New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:


They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen


<b>5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend</b>


Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:


Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.


New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:


While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.


<b>6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver</b>


Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:


I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.


New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:


Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.


<b>7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten</b>


Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:


I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.


New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:


Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"


<b>8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies</b>


Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:


But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.


New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:


Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.


<b>9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers</b>


Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:


He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.


New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:


When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.


<b>10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field</b>


Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:


And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.


New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:


So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.


<b>11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced</b>


Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:


Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.


New Testament (Luke 23:33) says:


When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left.


<b>12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves</b>


Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:


Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:


Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.


There is more. We learn in John that Jesus was the Messiah as he claimed to be the Messiah to the Samaritan women by the well of Jacob.


John 4


25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”


26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

[Curious Christian]

Let us assume your view is correct of Jesus being the only son of God (may Allah forgive me).

Doesn't Allah know your heart? If you are trying to explain that Jesus wasn't the Son of God then why would Allah condem you for your arguement?


God sent his son to know the judgement of sin on our behalf (by "our" I mean those who put their faith in Jesus).

Now what did this creation deserve? They deserved punishment for being astray.

The creation deserved damnation and eternity of hell's fire. God, in his mercy, provided his perfect lamb so that those who believe, repent and put their faith in Jesus would know everlasting life and enjoy God forever.

This makes the creation to God more important than His son.

No it doesn't. The Son sits at the right hand of the Father for all eternity in a position of glory.

Leave alone that the act of sacrifice conflicts with the nature of a God.

That act of sacrifice is most perfectly in harmony with the nature of God. Because God is Holy, Holy, Holy and perfect and his creation are fallen and sinfull a sacrifice is needed for any type of communion with God. The OT Jews had very strict sacrificial laws and temple rites. This was a foreshadow of the perfect sacrifce. Why did John the Baptist call Jesus "The Lamb of God."

I know the sacrifice was to eliminate the sins. What about the sins committed by Christians nowadays, like murder, stealing, rape or whatever. Or this sacrifice was to cover even such acts.

IF a true Christian commits any sin...which all Christians and every human being on the planet do commit sins, he must repent to the Lord. Christ's death on the cross covered all sins by those who believe from the beginning of creation till his final return.

Again for the point of having a son. regardless of the manner this son was created, having a son implies parenthood feelings. How can a God have parenthood feelings? A God in my view must be totally different from the creation. It makes one so comfortable and safe to know that our Lord is of a Supernatural power and Being. Having a son annuls all this.

We disagree. Man was made in God's own image (not physical image). We know that we share many of God's attibutes. We believe too that the Lord is supernatural and all powerful. Remember Genesis 22? God commanded Abraham to give his only son Issac? Read Genesis 22 sometime.

As Jesus is part of God, 2nd of trinity, does this imply that he has been always there? I assume yes. As I understand from curuious, that each part of God has a set of duties that they coordinate and each morning they are in harmony about who does what? Now this is very interesting. When Jesus was on the cross, no when jesus was a baby still breast feeding, did he delegate his duties to someone else? Who was in charge to take them over? Or those duties were not then fulfilled. How was the universe managed under such situation? If when he was a baby or on the cross, helpless, or in the grave before his claimed resurrection, was not assuming his duties, it does take away his divinity. In case his duties were carried out by the father or the holy spirit, this also makes him less divine that the other two parts of godhead.

Jesus isn't "2nd of trinity". All three in Godhead are equal. Yes Jesus was always there. He was present in creation. He was the creator. All things were made through him. (John 1) Jesus even claimed to the Jews that he was present before Abraham. Your assumption that each part of God has set duties isn't grounded. At different times each person in God has done different things. Because Jesus was fully God he could even perform his duties as a baby and on the cross.

More important, if his birth was miraculous and meant to be so, don’t u think that it would have been more effective if he showed up as already a grown up man. I mean why to start as a baby. The whole objective was to stress that fact that he is god incarnate. This should have been performed in a super miraculous fashion in order to attain this objective

Don't Muslims believe in Jesus' virgin birth? I guess a virgin giving birth isn't a super miraculous event to you?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam Curious,


I think I owe u an apology, when I tried to merge this topic with another thread u dedicated to reply to my and Wael's questions, I think I messed up somehow. Now I cannt find this other thread.


Hope u accept my apology and if u have the content, can u repost them here.


BTW, I will not comment on your last post. I will just leave those points for u and any other visitor or member to ponder upon them. I m sure you will take a second look on them.