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wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 07-10-2006, 05:52 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:But you are mistaken if you think this document is compatible with Muslim theology. And it certainly doesn't state (as Muslims claim) that another person was crucified in the place of Jesus.

i think you should read this..

please note that the Apocalypse of Peter (the Revelations sent to Peter) was directly written and spoken by Peter himself, unlike the Gospels of the New Testament, This Revelation was widely accepted and believed in by the early Christians during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. The early Christians clearly rejected the lies of crucifixion and trinity! but you and CC said that they are not real Christians... so who knows.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/non...poc/fgapcpt.htm

please note, after reading this link you will notice that

1- Jesus, peace be upon him, clearly never got crucified according to the Revelation. He spoke about the "substitute" that got crucified in his place that perfectly matches the Noble Quran's Divine Claims:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

2- Peter according to the NT and to the Apocalypse was the only one who witnessed the crucifixion. There is even further evidence in Hebrews 5:7 of the NT that clearly support Peter's Apocalypse.

3- Jesus pointed to the Arabs as the future race when he called them "another race." Even the New Testament supports this quote very well:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:43)"

actually there are many other points to mention, but these are enough for your to ponder, if you care.

Salam

Wael.

reepicheep · 07-10-2006, 01:10 PM

Would you agree that your argument can be summarized as follows?

(1) The 2nd Apocalypse of Peter contradicts the bible. Therefore, the bible is full of lies and half truths.

(2) The 2nd Apocalypse of Peter contradicts the Koran. Therefore, every word in the Koran is true.

Curious Christian · 07-10-2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:Bismillah:

i think you should read this..

please note that the Apocalypse of Peter (the Revelations sent to Peter) was directly written and spoken by Peter himself, unlike the Gospels of the New Testament, This Revelation was widely accepted and believed in by the early Christians during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. The early Christians clearly rejected the lies of crucifixion and trinity! but you and CC said that they are not real Christians... so who knows.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/non...poc/fgapcpt.htm

please note, after reading this link you will notice that

1- Jesus, peace be upon him, clearly never got crucified according to the Revelation. He spoke about the "substitute" that got crucified in his place that perfectly matches the Noble Quran's Divine Claims:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

2- Peter according to the NT and to the Apocalypse was the only one who witnessed the crucifixion. There is even further evidence in Hebrews 5:7 of the NT that clearly support Peter's Apocalypse.

3- Jesus pointed to the Arabs as the future race when he called them "another race." Even the New Testament supports this quote very well:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:43)"

actually there are many other points to mention, but these are enough for your to ponder, if you care.

Salam

Wael.

That Gnostic text is no part of scripture and never was. You may as well quote an article from the New York Times which states that Christ wasn't crucified. That book was not written by the apostle Peter. Read the rest of what Peter wrote and did in the book of Acts and you'll see that he knew that Christ was crucified and resurrected.

wel_mel_2 · 07-11-2006, 12:11 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:That Gnostic text is no part of scripture and never was. You may as well quote an article from the New York Times which states that Christ wasn't crucified. That book was not written by the apostle Peter. Read the rest of what Peter wrote and did in the book of Acts and you'll see that he knew that Christ was crucified and resurrected.

am sorry CC, let me make this clear statement.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT JESUS RESURRECTED. please pay attention to the word RESURRECTED. if you can find it in the whole Bible referring to Jesus Christ PBUH, do let me know.

this was number one, now do you remember the occasion when Jesus returned to that upper room after his alleged crucifixion: 'And saith unto them, (his disciples), 'Peace be unto you'' (Luke 24:36), and his disciples were terrified on recognizing him?": "Why should they be terrified?" When one recognizes one's long-lost friend or one's beloved, the natural reaction is to feel overjoyed, elated and one wants to embrace and kiss the hands and feet of the beloved. Why did they get terrified?" well, Christians always say because they (the disciples) thought that they were seeing a ghost.

"Did Jesus look like a ghost?" "No." "why did they think that they were seeing a ghost when he did not look like a ghost?"

Please allow me to explain:

the disciples of Jesus were not eye-witnesses or ear-witnesses to the actual happenings of the previous three days, as vouched for by St. Mark who says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus: "they all forsook him and fled." (Mark 14:50). All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was hanged on the Cross; they had heard that he had given up the Ghost; they had heard that he was dead and buried for three days. If one is confronted by a person with such a reputation then the conclusion is inescapable; they must be seeing a ghost. Little wonder these ten brave men were petrified."

but how did Jesys deal with this situation??????

Jesus reasoned with them. He said: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself' To put it in colloquial English, this is how he told them: 'What is wrong with you fellows, can't you see that I am the same person - who walked and talked with you, broke bread with you - flesh and blood in all respects.' Why do doubts enter your minds? 'Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have.' (Luke 24:39). In other words he is telling them: 'If I have flesh and bones, then I am not a ghost, not a spook and not a spirit!'"

Jesus is telling them, as recorded in this verse, in basic English, that what the disciples were asked to "handle and see" was not a translated body, not a metamorphosed body and not a resurrected body, because a resurrected body is a spiritualised body. He is telling them in the clearest language humanly possible that he is not what they were thinking. They were thinking that he was a spirit, a resurrected body, one having been brought back from the dead. He is most emphatic that he is not!"

you may ask "But how can you be so sure that the resurrected body cannot materialize physically as Jesus had obviously done?" the answer is because Jesus had himself pronounced that the resurrected bodies get spiritualised.

Do you remember the incident as recorded in the Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 20, where the learned men of the Jews- "the chief priests and the scribes with the elders"- had come to him with a number of posers, and among them was one about a Jewess who had seven husbands in turn, one after another according to a Jewish custom, and in time all seven husbands and the woman too died?" The trap that the religious hierarchy was trying to spring on him was; which one of the seven husbands was going to possess the woman on the 'Other side'- at the resurrection?- since they reasoned with Jesus that the seven brothers had her.

There was no problem while they fulfilled their obligation of trying to give her a child, because they had possessed her one by one in turn, and it was after the death of one that the other had taken her to wife. But since at the resurrection all seven will be brought to life simultaneously, there will be strife in heaven because all seven would want to get at her at the same time, specially if they had pleasure with her."

"Jesus debunked their false notion of the resurrection, by saying that at the resurrection: 'neither shall they die any more' (Luke 20:36) meaning that the resurrected persons will be Immortalised. They will not be subject to death any more, no more hanger or thirst, no more fatigue. In short, all the instruments of death will be powerless against the resurrected body. Jesus continues to explain: 'for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto the angles,' that is, that they will be Angelised - spiritualised, that they will become spirit-creatures, i.e. Spirits;'and the children of God, for such are the children of the Now you compare this with what Jesus said earlier... A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONE AS YOU SEE ME HAVE.. means i was not dead, i was not resurrected. clear , simple and plain.

again, h is Not what they were thinking, that he was not a Spirit, not a Ghost, not a Spook. To assure them further after having offered his hands and feet for inspection and verification that his was a material, physical body, and that all their bewilderment and disbelief was unjustified, he asked his disciples: "Have you here any meat?" (Meaning something to eat). "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:41-43) why he need to eat now????? let Schleliermacher in 1819, Albert Schweizer records him saying: "

Quote:If Christ had only eaten to show that he could eat, while he really had no need of nourishment, if would have been a pretense, something docetic."( In Quest of the Historical Jesus, page 64).

i still could go further, but i will just let you ponder over what was said.

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2006, 01:48 PM by Curious Christian.)

Quote:Bismillah:

am sorry CC, let me make this clear statement.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT JESUS RESURRECTED. please pay attention to the word RESURRECTED. if you can find it in the whole Bible referring to Jesus Christ PBUH, do let me know.

this was number one, now do you remember the occasion when Jesus returned to that upper room after his alleged crucifixion: 'And saith unto them, (his disciples), 'Peace be unto you'' (Luke 24:36), and his disciples were terrified on recognizing him?": "Why should they be terrified?" When one recognizes one's long-lost friend or one's beloved, the natural reaction is to feel overjoyed, elated and one wants to embrace and kiss the hands and feet of the beloved. Why did they get terrified?" well, Christians always say because they (the disciples) thought that they were seeing a ghost.

"Did Jesus look like a ghost?" "No." "why did they think that they were seeing a ghost when he did not look like a ghost?"

Please allow me to explain:

the disciples of Jesus were not eye-witnesses or ear-witnesses to the actual happenings of the previous three days, as vouched for by St. Mark who says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus: "they all forsook him and fled." (Mark 14:50). All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was hanged on the Cross; they had heard that he had given up the Ghost; they had heard that he was dead and buried for three days. If one is confronted by a person with such a reputation then the conclusion is inescapable; they must be seeing a ghost. Little wonder these ten brave men were petrified."

but how did Jesys deal with this situation??????

Jesus reasoned with them. He said: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself' To put it in colloquial English, this is how he told them: 'What is wrong with you fellows, can't you see that I am the same person - who walked and talked with you, broke bread with you - flesh and blood in all respects.' Why do doubts enter your minds? 'Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have.' (Luke 24:39). In other words he is telling them: 'If I have flesh and bones, then I am not a ghost, not a spook and not a spirit!'"

Jesus is telling them, as recorded in this verse, in basic English, that what the disciples were asked to "handle and see" was not a translated body, not a metamorphosed body and not a resurrected body, because a resurrected body is a spiritualised body. He is telling them in the clearest language humanly possible that he is not what they were thinking. They were thinking that he was a spirit, a resurrected body, one having been brought back from the dead. He is most emphatic that he is not!"

you may ask "But how can you be so sure that the resurrected body cannot materialize physically as Jesus had obviously done?" the answer is because Jesus had himself pronounced that the resurrected bodies get spiritualised.

Do you remember the incident as recorded in the Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 20, where the learned men of the Jews- "the chief priests and the scribes with the elders"- had come to him with a number of posers, and among them was one about a Jewess who had seven husbands in turn, one after another according to a Jewish custom, and in time all seven husbands and the woman too died?" The trap that the religious hierarchy was trying to spring on him was; which one of the seven husbands was going to possess the woman on the 'Other side'- at the resurrection?- since they reasoned with Jesus that the seven brothers had her.

There was no problem while they fulfilled their obligation of trying to give her a child, because they had possessed her one by one in turn, and it was after the death of one that the other had taken her to wife. But since at the resurrection all seven will be brought to life simultaneously, there will be strife in heaven because all seven would want to get at her at the same time, specially if they had pleasure with her."

"Jesus debunked their false notion of the resurrection, by saying that at the resurrection: 'neither shall they die any more' (Luke 20:36) meaning that the resurrected persons will be Immortalised. They will not be subject to death any more, no more hanger or thirst, no more fatigue. In short, all the instruments of death will be powerless against the resurrected body. Jesus continues to explain: 'for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto the angles,' that is, that they will be Angelised - spiritualised, that they will become spirit-creatures, i.e. Spirits;'and the children of God, for such are the children of the Now you compare this with what Jesus said earlier... A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONE AS YOU SEE ME HAVE.. means i was not dead, i was not resurrected. clear , simple and plain.

again, h is Not what they were thinking, that he was not a Spirit, not a Ghost, not a Spook. To assure them further after having offered his hands and feet for inspection and verification that his was a material, physical body, and that all their bewilderment and disbelief was unjustified, he asked his disciples: "Have you here any meat?" (Meaning something to eat). "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:41-43) why he need to eat now????? let Schleliermacher in 1819, Albert Schweizer records him saying: "

i still could go further, but i will just let you ponder over what was said.

Salam

Wael.

How many times does the bible say that Christ is risen Wel Mel? How many times?

Matthew 17:9

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” 

Matthew 28:6

He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Matthew 28:7

And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”

Mark 16:6

But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.

Mark 16:14

Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. What? He rebuked their unbelief in the fact that rose from the dead? That is odd considering Jesus was laughing at another man during the crucifiction right?

Luke 24:6

He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee,

Luke 24:34

saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”

John 2:22

Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

Romans 8:34

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

1 Cor 15:12

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

....I could go on for quite some time.

You can take a verse from the Holy Bible and twist it and add commentary to it to derive a meaning which was not intended. To try to convice even the novice bible scholar that the Bible doesn't demonstrate Jesus' resurrection is lunacy. Further the apostle Peter was present at Jesus death.

wel_mel_2 · 07-11-2006, 10:27 PM

Bismillah:

Quote:How many times does the bible say that Christ is risen Wel Mel? How many times?

If you agree on the term risen or raised, then we have no problem at all CC, because risen or raised does not mean resurrected. Look at my statement in my earlier post please I said:

Quote:THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT JESUS RESURRECTED. please pay attention to the word RESURRECTED.

rise according to oxford dictionary means: come or go up, get up from lying, sitting, or kneelin, reach a higher social or professional position

raise: according to oxford dictionary means: lift or move to a higher position or level, set upright, promote to a higher rank, etc.

Please note that both terms could also mean coming back from death. But if this is what Jesus really meant he would use the term resurrected, not risen and not raised.

Resurrection according to oxford dictionary means: the act of resurrecting or the fact of being resurrected. (the Resurrection) (in Christian belief) Christ’s rising from the dead.

But Jesus did not use this term at all CC. he used risen, which is very close to the term that was used in the Qur’an:.

So if you say he was risen, then you just have to agree with the Qur'an and the Islamic view on this matter: the Qur'an says:

“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Jesus Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’ – But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not – Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.” [Al-Qur’an 4:157-158]

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 07-11-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:Bismillah:

If you agree on the term risen or raised, then we have no problem at all CC, because risen or raised does not mean resurrected. Look at my statement in my earlier post please I said:

rise according to oxford dictionary means: come or go up, get up from lying, sitting, or kneelin, reach a higher social or professional position

raise: according to oxford dictionary means: lift or move to a higher position or level, set upright, promote to a higher rank, etc.

Please note that both terms could also mean coming back from death. But if this is what Jesus really meant he would use the term resurrected, not risen and not raised.

Resurrection according to oxford dictionary means: the act of resurrecting or the fact of being resurrected. (the Resurrection) (in Christian belief) Christ’s rising from the dead.

But Jesus did not use this term at all CC. he used risen, which is very close to the term that was used in the Qur’an:.

So if you say he was risen, then you just have to agree with the Qur'an and the Islamic view on this matter: the Qur'an says:

“That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Jesus Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’ – But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not – Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.” [Al-Qur’an 4:157-158]

Salam

Wael.

I don't know which Greek words were useds and the context and their meaning.

What about the verses which say that Jesus died? The fact that he died taken with the words (risen) would indicate resurrection would they noy?

Mark 15:39

And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!"

Mark 15 42

42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

Romans 8:34

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

etc.etc.

wel_mel_2 · 07-11-2006, 10:47 PM

Quote:I don't know which Greek words were useds and the context and their meaning.

What about the verses which say that Jesus died? The fact that he died taken with the words (risen) would indicate resurrection would they noy?

You read those verses with understanding please... all of them are from “hearsay”. Nothing can prove his REAL death on the cross as you claim. I also posted the fact that if Jesus was really crucified and resurrected, he would not come back to eat, drink and ask his people to see his flesh and bone… he was proving to them that he was not dead, he was not a spirit, and that he was not resurrected. Because he said a SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONE AS YOU SEE ME HAVE. And a resurrected person DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONE CC.

Salam

Wael.

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