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reepicheep · 07-08-2006, 04:40 PM

Yet another bizarre fatwa which has come out of the mouth of an Arab Sunni Muslim:

Pray or die, Somali sheikh tells Muslims

Some excerpts:

Quote:A leading Mogadishu sheikh said on Friday Muslims who do not pray five times a day should be put to death -- the latest sign of a fast-emerging hardline face to Somalia's newly-powerful Islamists.
The sheikh's statement -- which he confirmed to Reuters after it was broadcast on local media -- caused consternation among residents and will fuel foreign fears the Islamists are planning a hardline Taliban-style rule.

"He who does not perform prayer will be considered as infidel and our sharia law orders that person to be killed," said Sheikh Abdalla Ali, who runs a sharia court in the Somali capital which the Islamists took last month.

Curious Christian · 07-08-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:Yet another bizarre fatwa which has come out of the mouth of an Arab Sunni Muslim:

Pray or die, Somali sheikh tells Muslims

Some excerpts:

I don't put all Muslims in this catagory of course, but why can't this guy just let people worship and grow with Allah without his murderous hand pushing them in some certain direction? If Islam is the truth won't people just be drawn to it and believe it without threats like this?

wel_mel_2 · 07-09-2006, 12:37 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:I don't put all Muslims in this catagory of course, but why can't this guy just let people worship and grow with Allah without his murderous hand pushing them in some certain direction? If Islam is the truth won't people just be drawn to it and believe it without threats like this?

we normally follow the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. did he encourage killing those who missed the prayer?

well, reep will work on it.'

in fact, Christians are ordered to kill anyone who come to invite you to worship other gods. this order is to be found in the Bible. am not quoting a "Christian Fatwa" here.

Salam

Wael

reepicheep · 07-09-2006, 01:05 AM

> we normally follow the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. did he encourage killing

> those who missed the prayer? well, reep will work on it.'

If you check out the following fatwa:

Ruling on making up missed prayers

you will see it reads (in part):

Quote:When you miss a prayer deliberately: This is a major sin, and it is so serious that some of the scholars stated that the one who does this is a kaafir.

Obviously, kaafirs aren't Muslim. So according to Islamic law, then, any muslim who deliberately misses a prayer is guilty of apostasy and is no longer considered to be a muslim.

The penalty for apostasy, according to Islamic law, is death. So, yes, it would appear that Mohammad believed that people who deliberately miss even one prayer are guilty of a crime punishable by death.

wel_mel_2 · 07-09-2006, 01:24 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:If you check out the following fatwa:

Ruling on making up missed prayers

you will see it reads (in part):

Obviously, kaafirs aren't Muslim. So according to Islamic law, then, any muslim who deliberately misses a prayer is guilty of apostasy and is no longer considered to be a muslim.

I was sure that you are going to reply this way, Alhamdulelah.

Kafir is one who rejects ISLAM as a whole including the prayer. this is another issue, but we are talking about missing prayers due to forgetting, under the temptation of Satan etc but he believe certainly that Islam is the true religion, he is just lazy to offer his prayer, in this case it is advised that we should do something called ISLAH, means to advise him to turn back to practice Islam in its proper way. So you failed again reep.

Quote:The penalty for apostasy, according to Islamic law, is death. So, yes, it would appear that Mohammad believed that people who deliberately miss even one prayer are guilty of a crime punishable by death.

The penalty of apostasy in the Bible is also death. I just posted few verses concerning this issue in the other thread. But here they are again.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." 

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." 

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

how about the new testament ???

Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,

2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'


5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'

6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 

9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

There are few points to notice here:

1- Notice in verse 3, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.

2- In verse 4, he used the cursing of parents' punishment as an example. The context, however, is not limited to just this example!

3- In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.

4- Jesus clearly had a problem with them not following the punishment of death for cursing the parents or any punishment of death that is commanded in the OT for this matter! In fact, Jesus himself said:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

This clearly means:

1- Jesus absolutely approved and commanded the following of the OT's Laws regarding apostates!

2- The fact he commanded death penalty for cursing the parents clearly proves that he also approves of killing apostates as clearly shown in the OT verses above!

Killing in Islam is only done in 2 cases,

1- During War in self defense and

2- If someone abandoned the teaching of Islam after accepting it and create mischief in the land.

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 07-09-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:Bismillah:

I was sure that you are going to reply this way, Alhamdulelah.

Kafir is one who rejects ISLAM as a whole including the prayer. this is another issue, but we are talking about missing prayers due to forgetting, under the temptation of Satan etc but he believe certainly that Islam is the true religion, he is just lazy to offer his prayer, in this case it is advised that we should do something called ISLAH, means to advise him to turn back to practice Islam in its proper way. So you failed again reep.

The penalty of apostasy in the Bible is also death. I just posted few verses concerning this issue in the other thread. But here they are again.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." 

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." 

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

how about the new testament ???

Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,

2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'


5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'

6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 

9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

There are few points to notice here:

1- Notice in verse 3, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.

2- In verse 4, he used the cursing of parents' punishment as an example. The context, however, is not limited to just this example!

3- In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.

4- Jesus clearly had a problem with them not following the punishment of death for cursing the parents or any punishment of death that is commanded in the OT for this matter! In fact, Jesus himself said:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

This clearly means:

1- Jesus absolutely approved and commanded the following of the OT's Laws regarding apostates!

2- The fact he commanded death penalty for cursing the parents clearly proves that he also approves of killing apostates as clearly shown in the OT verses above!

Killing in Islam is only done in 2 cases,

1- During War in self defense and

2- If someone abandoned the teaching of Islam after accepting it and create mischief in the land.

Salam

Wael.

In Matthew 15 Jesus reveals that he knows the hearts of the Pharisees. They come to him making accusations about he and his disciples are breaking the law. Jesus turns the table on them and show them that they ignore the law concerning honoring your parents. This is not a commandment from Jesus to kill kids who don't honor their parents.

I'd also encourage you to read Matthew 23 in it's in entirety. Jesus is describing woe to the scribes and pharises for what they do and teach.

Matthew 5 isn't Jesus telling everybody to obey the law (OT) either. In fullfilling the law, Jesus does not alter, replace, or nullify the former comands (OT); rather, He establishes their true intents and purpose in His teaching and accomplishments them in HIs obedient life. The Law, as well as all the Prophets, point to Christ. This is beautiful.

Throughout His entire ministry he was constantly accused of not obeying what the Pharises perceived as law...such as not picking fruit or curing the sick on the Sabboth. This is why they wanted to kill him.

If Jesus had preached that obeying the law was the only thing then why would the Scribes and Pharises have wanted to kill him??

wel_mel_2 · 07-10-2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:In Matthew 15 Jesus reveals that he knows the hearts of the Pharisees. They come to him making accusations about he and his disciples are breaking the law. Jesus turns the table on them and show them that they ignore the law concerning honoring your parents. This is not a commandment from Jesus to kill kids who don't honor their parents.

I'd also encourage you to read Matthew 23 in it's in entirety. Jesus is describing woe to the scribes and pharises for what they do and teach.

Matthew 5 isn't Jesus telling everybody to obey the law (OT) either. In fullfilling the law, Jesus does not alter, replace, or nullify the former comands (OT); rather, He establishes their true intents and purpose in His teaching and accomplishments them in HIs obedient life. The Law, as well as all the Prophets, point to Christ. This is beautiful.

Throughout His entire ministry he was constantly accused of not obeying what the Pharises perceived as law...such as not picking fruit or curing the sick on the Sabboth. This is why they wanted to kill him.

If Jesus had preached that obeying the law was the only thing then why would the Scribes and Pharises have wanted to kill him??

'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death
.' This is what Jesus said. i dont know how you interpret the Bible.

please note that Jesus also said regarding the scribes and Pharises:

Mathew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 

so am asking, how are you going to enter into the kingdom of heaven if you dont follow the OT ?

Salam

Wael.

Shereen · 07-15-2006, 01:22 PM

If Mohammad(saw) and Allah never mentioned that mising a prayer is punishable by Death then no Somali or other Imam or authority has the right to MAKE FALSE CLAIMS!

INFACT IT IS HARAM AND FORBIDDEN TO "MAKE UP" THINGS WHICH ALLAH AND MOHAMMAD HAS NOT MENTIONED OR SUGGESTED

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