Good biblical defense of the Trinity

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

There is one God. A God in three persons.

Is this to be found in the Ten Commandments? For example will be able to read something in the Bible like <b>“I am God in three persons thou shall worship all of us because we are all one”
</b>


Or <b>“hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One God in three persons
</b>”???


Or <b>“there is Only one God (in three persons)”
</b> even between brackets?

Consider this analogy.
I am a man.


I am also a son (the son of my father).


I am also a father (the father of my daughter).


I am all three.

Good example CC, but can you answer this simple question please.


If you as<b> “a man” </b> told your wife a secret. Will you as <b>“a son” </b> and as<b> “a father”</b> know this secret as well or no?

First you must accept and understand that Jesus is God which is something that Muslims reject.

not only Muslims, many Christians sects do not believe that Jesus is God. they only consider him as Lord and son of God. and of course both terms does not mean "God"

God in three distinct persons. All were present at the laying of the foundations of our universe. Genisis even says, "We created man in our image" not "my image."

that's because in several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.


In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We’ instead of ‘I’. This is known as the ‘royal plural’. , Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur’an, He often uses Arabic word 'Nahnu' meaning ‘We’. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect. same thing when you read Genesis. US and We refers to God alone and not more than one person.


Salam


Wael.

[Rock]

Bismillah


Curious Christian


Thank you for reply,but I need to know more.I am intrest in understanding not proving it is correct or not.


From your reply I understand that:


You believe in one God and this God is Juses.


You call him the father because He has a son,who is this son?


Also you call him the son because He has a father,who is this father?


I am still intrest in understanding what the following words mean to you(with respect to this God):the word,the lord,the spirit and the co-creator.

[Curious Christian]

Bismillah:


Is this to be found in the Ten Commandments? For example will be able to read something in the Bible like <b>“I am God in three persons thou shall worship all of us because we are all one”
</b>


Or <b>“hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One God in three persons
</b>”???


Or <b>“there is Only one God (in three persons)”
</b> even between brackets?


Good example CC, but can you answer this simple question please.


If you as<b> “a man” </b> told your wife a secret. Will you as <b>“a son” </b> and as<b> “a father”</b> know this secret as well or no?


not only Muslims, many Christians sects do not believe that Jesus is God. they only consider him as Lord and son of God. and of course both terms does not mean "God"


that's because in several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.


In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We’ instead of ‘I’. This is known as the ‘royal plural’. , Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur’an, He often uses Arabic word 'Nahnu' meaning ‘We’. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect. same thing when you read Genesis. US and We refers to God alone and not more than one person.


Salam


Wael.

Wel mel...give me some time to reflect and study your points.


However you said this, "not only Muslims, many Christians sects do not believe that Jesus is God. they only consider him as Lord and son of God. and of course both terms does not mean "God"


I tell you that if a "christian" denies the deity of Christ than that person isn't a Christian at all.

[Curious Christian]

Bismillah


Curious Christian


Thank you for reply,but I need to know more.I am intrest in understanding not proving it is correct or not.


From your reply I understand that:


You believe in one God and this God is Juses.


You call him the father because He has a son,who is this son?


Also you call him the son because He has a father,who is this father?


I am still intrest in understanding what the following words mean to you(with respect to this God):the word,the lord,the spirit and the co-creator.

give me some time on this to provide thoughtfull answers.

[Rock]

Bismillah


Take your time,but please do`nt forget.

[Curious Christian]

Wael,


The real issue here is Christ. If you don't accept Christ as God then of course you aren't going to accept the Trinity.


Christ is infinite, His life did not begin at conception in Mary, he was not created at that time. He has been with the Father since before the creation of the world, in fact Christ was an integral participant throughout creation – Hebrews 1:2. He was, is and always will be. He ascended into Heaven to seat at the right hand of His Father to rule – Acts 1:9.


2) Look at this simple logic that can be found in the first chapter of John again, you think that John 1 means "a god." I don't think it does. I've responded to that question before.


John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


THE WORD = GOD


John 1:14, 15 “The Word became flesh, and made His dwelling among us, and we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him..."


JESUS = THE WORD


Logic declares that if A=B and B=C then A=C. Therefore, since


JESUS = THE WORD and


THE WORD = GOD, then


JESUS = GOD


3) Some more verses:


Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."


2 Peter 1:1 "...by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."


Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.'"


Hebrews 1:3 "The Son is the radiance of His glory, and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."


Colossians 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form."


Romans 9:5 "...and from them (the Jews) is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God overall, forever praised"


As far as Christ's bodily creation on earth, yes, he was born of the virgin Mary. Indeed Christ wasn't fully God and fully man until he was born of Mary. So, Christ was the firstborn. Does that mean that Christ didn't exist before is bodily birth on earth? No. We know quite the opposite as outlined above.


In context when Jesus said, "I and my Father are one", he means just that. Of course He is also one "in purpose" since He and God are one literally.


And not all mankind is part of the Trinity. However, to have communion with God you must come through Christ.


Some questions for you about Christ, since He is the heart of the matter...


Muslims believe that Christ didn't die on the cross and thus wasn't resurrected. When and how then do Muslims believe Christ died? Surely Muslims believe that Christ, a prophet suffered death on earth...afterall Mohammed Allah's greatest prophet died a physical death did he not?

[Curious Christian]

Bismillah


Curious Christian


Thank you for reply,but I need to know more.I am intrest in understanding not proving it is correct or not.


From your reply I understand that:


You believe in one God and this God is Juses.


You call him the father because He has a son,who is this son?


Also you call him the son because He has a father,who is this father?


I am still intrest in understanding what the following words mean to you(with respect to this God):the word,the lord,the spirit and the co-creator.

<b>You believe in one God and this God is Juses. </b>


I believe in God, the Father Almighty,


the Creator of heaven and earth,


and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:


Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,


born of the Virgin Mary,


suffered under Pontius Pilate,


was crucified, died, and was buried.


He descended into hell.


The third day He arose again from the dead.


He ascended into heaven


and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,


whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.


I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic <i>(catholic meaning unverisal not necessarily Roman Catholic)</i> church,


the communion of saints,


the forgiveness of sins,


the resurrection of the body,


and life everlasting.


<b>You call him the father because He has a son,who is this son?</b>


In John 3:16 we read that God, because he loved the world so much, gave his only begotten son who knew no sin to take punishment for sin on our behalf so that we may have everlasting life. That son is Jesus. Fully man and fully God. In addition believers are also known as sons of God throughout scripture.


<b>Also you call him the son because He has a father,who is this father?</b>


The father of course is God. The Father is also the son is also the Holy Spirit. As literal as it sounds "God in Three Persons."


<b>the word,the lord,the spirit and the co-creator.</b>


<b>the word.</b> As I posted above from John 1:1...In the beginning the was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


<b>the lord</b> The Lord is Christ, God and the Holy Spirit. The word "Lord" is used to describe both God the Father and Jesus with the Bible.


<b>the spirit </b> Again the sprit of God is God. We learn about the nature of the sprit throughout scripture.


Mathew 14


<i>16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.</i>


25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


<b>co-creator.</b> Jesus, since He is God. Is the Creator.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


First of all i would like to remind you of my simple question regarding trinity.


If you as<b> “a man” </b> told your wife a secret. Will you as <b>“a son”</b> and as <b>“a father”</b> know this secret as well or no?

[Christ is infinite, His life did not begin at conception in Mary, he was not created at that time. He has been with the Father since before the creation of the world, in fact Christ was an integral participant throughout creation – Hebrews 1:2.

again we are requesting ONE single verse from the lips of Jesus Christ where <b>HE SAID </b> i am the Creator. or I am infinite etc,,,

He ascended into Heaven to seat at the right hand of His Father to rule – Acts 1:9.

First <b>Acts 1:9</b> does not mention that he 'sat on the right hand of his father' this verse only says that he WAS TAKEN UP. Please note this verse does not also say that HE (HIMSELF) ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. NO, it says HE WAS TAKEN UP, and taken up means somebody else has taken him up, another force and another power and not HIS OWN POWER.


The verse where it says <b>he seat on the right hand of God</b> is to be found in Mark 16:19


However, this verse is considered to be one of the most serious of those <b>"grave defects"</b> which the authors of the <b>RSV</b> had tried to rectify concerned the Ascension of Christ. There have been only two references in the Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and of John to the most stupendous event in Christianity — OF JESUS BEING TAKEN UP INTO HEAVEN. These two references were obtained in every Bible in every language, prior to 1952, when the RSV first appeared. These were:


"So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was <b>TAKEN UP INTO HEAVEN</b>, and sat down at the right hand of God."


(Mark 16:19)


"While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was CARRIED UP INTO HEAVEN."


(Luke 24:51)


Now please look at the image below, which is a photo copy where the quotation MARK 16:19 above ought to appear. You will be shocked to note that Mark 16 ends at verse 8, and after an embarrassing expanse of blank space the missing verses appear in "small print" as a footnote at the bottom of the page. If you can lay your hands on a RSV 1952, you will find the last six words of Luke 24:51 above, i.e. "AND WAS CARRIED UP INTO HEAVEN" replaced by a tiny "a" to tell you to see the footnote if you please, where you will find these missing words. Every honest Christian has to admit that he does not consider any footnote in any Bible as the word of God. Why should the paid servants of Christianity consign the mightiest miracle of their religion to a mere footnote?

2) Look at this simple logic that can be found in the first chapter of John again, you think that John 1 means "a god." I don't think it does. I've responded to that question before.

it is not that i think or that you think... we are talking about the correct translation of the Greek word. which if you are in doubt you have to make some research.

And not all mankind is part of the Trinity. However, to have communion with God you must come through Christ.

why not? if the same word ONE used in john 10:30 was the same when he address his disciples and other people.

Muslims believe that Christ didn't die on the cross and thus wasn't resurrected. When and how then do Muslims believe Christ died?

Muslims believe, that Jesus was one of the mightiest messengers of God that he was the Christ, that he was born miraculously without any male intervention (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today), that he gave life to the dead by God's permission and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission. In fact, no Muslim is a Muslim if he or she does not believe in Jesus!


the miraculous birth of Jesus however, does not make him a God or a "begotten" son of God the Holy Quran says:


"The similitude of Jesus before Allah (God) is that of Adam; He created him from dust then said to him: 'Be', and he was." 3:59


Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, but rather that someone else was made to resemble him and crucified instead of him. The Qur'an states that he was raised up to the heavens where he will await until the day when he will be sent back to earth towards the end of time. Allah says: "<b>And because of their (Jews) saying boastfully: 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Messenger of God.' But they killed him not nor did they crucify him, but rather the resemblance of Jesus was put in another man (and they killed that man). And those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture, for surely they killed him not. Rather, Allah raised him up (body and soul) unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, Most Wise. And there is none of the people of the Scripture (i.e. Jews and Christians), except that he will surely believe in Him (that he was really a messenger of God) before his (Jesus') death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them."</b>4:157-159


Jesus, son of Mary will be returning to this world before the Day of Resurrection. He will return to become <b>a leader of the Muslim nation.</b>


"And he (Jesus, son of Mary) shall be known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise)." 4361


The Prophet Muhammad has prophesised that Jesus will return and judge mankind with justice. He will descend by the white minaretin the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels, and will fight against the Antichrist (Dajjaal) until he reaches the gate of Ludd (present-day Israel), where he will kill him. after that he will die as all human being.


Salam


Wael.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

However you said this, "not only Muslims, many Christians sects do not believe that Jesus is God. they only consider him as Lord and son of God. and of course both terms does not mean "God"<b></b>


I tell you that if a "christian" denies the deity of Christ than that person isn't a Christian at all.

am sorry, but those Christians whom you say they are not, also say the same thing about you. they say Jesus is not God and anyone say he is, then he is not a true Christian.


now for people like me, how will i know which one is really 'true' Christian and which is not?


please note that the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Cerinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet of God and NOT AS GOD. Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus (pbuh) as God.


In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read

"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God,
according to a survey published today. <b>The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.</b> Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

But what is a messenger of God? Is he not "God's supreme agent" ?. This is indeed what God Himself has already told us in the noble Qur'an 1400 years ago, and exactly what Jesus (pbuh) himself testified to in the Bible:


"And this is life eternal, <b>that they might know thee the only true God</b>, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:3


believe me CC, with every passing day, the most learned among the Christian community are slowly recognizing the truth and drawing closer and closer to Islam. These are not Muslims who issued this statement. These are not "liberal" Christians. These are the most learned and most highly esteemed men of the Anglican Church. These men have dedicated their whole lives to the study of the religion of Jesus, and their study has driven them to the truth which God had already revealed to them in the Qur'an 1400 years ago: That Jesus was not God. That God is not a Trinity. And that the stories of the ministry of Jesus in the Bible have been extensively tampered with by the hands of mankind.


The Church, as <b>Heinz Zahrnt </b> put it "put words into the mouth of Jesus which he never spoke and attributed actions to him which he never performed." One of those who has shown that most of what the church says about Jesus is baseless is Rudolph Augustein in his book "Jesus the Son of Man."


Another very comprehensive study of this matter can be found in the book <b>"The Myth of God Incarnate" </b> which was written by seven theologian scholars in England in 1977 and edited by John Hick. Their conclusion in this matter is that Jesus was <b>"a man approved by God, for a special role within the divine purpose, and..... the later conception of him as God incarnate ... is a mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us." </b>


ALSO... A University of <b>Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable research into newly found ancient documents concludes that "</b>....

The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are later additions.... what the church said about him. Such a claim of deity for himself would not have been consistent with his entire lifestyle as we can reconstruct. For the first three decades after Jesus' death Christianity continued as a sect within Judaism. The first three decades of the existence of the church were within the synagogue. That would have been beyond belief if they (the followers) had boldly proclaimed the deity of Jesus."

consider the following verses from the Bible which does not talk of any trinity. i also ask you to show me ONE SINGLE verse where it says for example, "hear o people, i am God three i one or three persons" there is NONE CC.


1."Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD <b>he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else."</b> Deuteronomy 4:39.


2."Thou shalt have <b>no other gods before me</b>." Exodus 20:3


3."For thou shalt <b>worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:</b>" Exodus 34:14


4."Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: <b>that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior."</b> Isaiah 43:10-11. (MEANS JESUS IS NOT SAVIOR CC, IT IS ONLY GOD THE FATHER)


5."Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; <b>I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God."</b> Isaiah 44:6


6."That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,<b> that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else."</b> Isaiah 45:6


7<b>."For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." </b> Isaiah 45:18. (MEANS JESUS IS NOT THE CREATOR AS YOU CLAIMD)


8."Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for <b>I [am] God, and [there is] none else."</b> Isaiah 45:22


Now you should begin to ask yourself: If there was no god before or after God Almighty, then how was Jesus (pbuh) "begotten" as a god? The answer is: he was not. He was a mortal man, not a god. We even have the testimony of the majority of today's Anglican Bishopsin defense of this basic truth. If we want the testimony of a trustworthy witness then how much more trustworthy a witness shall we ever find than the majority of the most learned and respected conservative Christians of the Anglican Church?


Salam


Wael.

[Curious Christian]

Bismillah:


First of all i would like to remind you of my simple question regarding trinity.


If you as<b> “a man” </b> told your wife a secret. Will you as <b>“a son”</b> and as <b>“a father”</b> know this secret as well or no?


again we are requesting ONE single verse from the lips of Jesus Christ where <b>HE SAID </b> i am the Creator. or I am infinite etc,,,


First <b>Acts 1:9</b> does not mention that he 'sat on the right hand of his father' this verse only says that he WAS TAKEN UP. Please note this verse does not also say that HE (HIMSELF) ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. NO, it says HE WAS TAKEN UP, and taken up means somebody else has taken him up, another force and another power and not HIS OWN POWER.


The verse where it says <b>he seat on the right hand of God</b> is to be found in Mark 16:19


However, this verse is considered to be one of the most serious of those <b>"grave defects"</b> which the authors of the <b>RSV</b> had tried to rectify concerned the Ascension of Christ. There have been only two references in the Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and of John to the most stupendous event in Christianity — OF JESUS BEING TAKEN UP INTO HEAVEN. These two references were obtained in every Bible in every language, prior to 1952, when the RSV first appeared. These were:


"So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was <b>TAKEN UP INTO HEAVEN</b>, and sat down at the right hand of God."


(Mark 16:19)


"While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was CARRIED UP INTO HEAVEN."


(Luke 24:51)


Now please look at the image below, which is a photo copy where the quotation MARK 16:19 above ought to appear. You will be shocked to note that Mark 16 ends at verse 8, and after an embarrassing expanse of blank space the missing verses appear in "small print" as a footnote at the bottom of the page. If you can lay your hands on a RSV 1952, you will find the last six words of Luke 24:51 above, i.e. "AND WAS CARRIED UP INTO HEAVEN" replaced by a tiny "a" to tell you to see the footnote if you please, where you will find these missing words. Every honest Christian has to admit that he does not consider any footnote in any Bible as the word of God. Why should the paid servants of Christianity consign the mightiest miracle of their religion to a mere footnote?





it is not that i think or that you think... we are talking about the correct translation of the Greek word. which if you are in doubt you have to make some research.


why not? if the same word ONE used in john 10:30 was the same when he address his disciples and other people.


Muslims believe, that Jesus was one of the mightiest messengers of God that he was the Christ, that he was born miraculously without any male intervention (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today), that he gave life to the dead by God's permission and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission. In fact, no Muslim is a Muslim if he or she does not believe in Jesus!


the miraculous birth of Jesus however, does not make him a God or a "begotten" son of God the Holy Quran says:


"The similitude of Jesus before Allah (God) is that of Adam; He created him from dust then said to him: 'Be', and he was." 3:59


Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, but rather that someone else was made to resemble him and crucified instead of him. The Qur'an states that he was raised up to the heavens where he will await until the day when he will be sent back to earth towards the end of time. Allah says: "<b>And because of their (Jews) saying boastfully: 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Messenger of God.' But they killed him not nor did they crucify him, but rather the resemblance of Jesus was put in another man (and they killed that man). And those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture, for surely they killed him not. Rather, Allah raised him up (body and soul) unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, Most Wise. And there is none of the people of the Scripture (i.e. Jews and Christians), except that he will surely believe in Him (that he was really a messenger of God) before his (Jesus') death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them."</b>4:157-159


Jesus, son of Mary will be returning to this world before the Day of Resurrection. He will return to become <b>a leader of the Muslim nation.</b>


"And he (Jesus, son of Mary) shall be known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah and to His Paradise)." 4361


The Prophet Muhammad has prophesised that Jesus will return and judge mankind with justice. He will descend by the white minaretin the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels, and will fight against the Antichrist (Dajjaal) until he reaches the gate of Ludd (present-day Israel), where he will kill him. after that he will die as all human being.


Salam


Wael.

So...who was a greater prophet? Jesus or Mohammed?