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Quote:Bismillah
salam
Thank u curious, of course I understand, we all work for living and cannt spend all day on here.
Anyway, as such we can say that prayer including making the sign of the cross was not certainly made by jesus or his followers. Simply because the corss at that time didnt gain the position it has for being a symbole of sacrifice and suffering. Who decided then on the form of prayer? and as u said, I mean who actually commanded you as a christian how to worship your God?
In other words, prayer's root, apart of course from the passage which goes like our father in heaven...etc, is not established by a divine passage. Am i not right? I m aware that the word prayer to u includes just making supplications.
The earliest church would make the sign of the fish as a way of identifying themselves when they were being persecuted and martyer by Nero and the likes. Our worship is taken from both the bible and the earliest church records.
The NT as a whole gives us hints as to prayer and worship. You read in Paul's letters that he is continually in prayer over one matter or another and asked his friends to pray for him. Christ DID outline a prayer for his followers commonly known as "The Lord's Prayer."
Matthew 6 5-15
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Prayers are way more than just prayers of supplication. You pray to God at His Glorification, you pray lamantations, prayers of Thanksgiving etc. Read the book of Psalms for a good idea of how prayers serve many different purposes.
Speaking of prayer, I have a question for you....
I've read that Mohammed originally commanded that the Muslim should pray toward Jeruselem, but then at some point in history he changed it to Mecca. Is that true?
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Bismillah
Curious, u r making the same mistake again, Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him does not command us with anything. BUt rather he receives the commands hiimself from Allah thru Quran.
Insh aAllah I will answer this on another thread, probably in the same thread of your questions.
As for this post I have a comment to make, but Insh aAllah i will perform my Asr prayer first. :)
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06-13-2006, 02:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2006, 02:08 PM by Muslimah.)
Bismillah
Quote:Prayers are way more than just prayers of supplication. You pray to God at His Glorification, you pray lamantations, prayers of Thanksgiving etc. Read the book of Psalms for a good idea of how prayers serve many different purposes.
salam Curious, I m aware of course that prayer serve many purposes. However, what i m trying to convey to u, specially when u said that your forms of worship is based on both the bible and early church.
This in fact what I was getting at. As a Christian, you perform worship according to what has been taught by ordinary people just like you and me and not strictly thru divine orders. Take for example as I told u, certainly Jesus (being god may Allah Forgive me for saying this), didnt kneel in front of a cross with own image on it to pray. Leave alone to whom he should pray. Thus, the cross being part and parecl, not only this, but an important element and signal during prayer or other Christian rituals is a man made not a divine one. Obviously, as I said, since the cross didnt gain this position except after the so called death of Jesus, it couldnt have been set by Jesus as an element of worship.
Just let me underline this point i m trying honestly to draw your attention to it.
Worship, being a way to connect to The God, The Creator, The Eternal, must be taken from His Commands. I mean only God would tell us how to worship him. I shouldnt in any way take any part of the worship which is actually the fundmental aspect of religion from ordinary people, be it the early church or other. Who are they? what authorize them to legislate how people should worship Allah. No wonder, as u said, the protestant has a way Lutherans do it differently...etc.
Did u get my point Curious. Think about it before u jump trying to wipe it under the carpet. I m sure u r smart enough to be fully understanding what i m getting at.
Let alone that Jesus, even if he eat and drink what u call communion, it could never be alcoholic wine.
Just think before u feel threatened and wanting to just defend.
The rest and more comments INsh aAllah I will get to it.
No laughs, but currently I m staying at my brother's who has two lovely children and I m fighting with them over the computer. :) :wavey:
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Quote:Bismillah
Let alone that Jesus, even if he eat and drink what u call communion, it could never be alcoholic wine.
Why wouldn't it be alcoholic wine???
God doesn't prohibite drinking wine....just drunkeness.
In addition to the last supper Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding party...and we know that it was <i>good</i> wine.
Further, wine was the most common beverage in Jesus' time. Even more so than clean water.
As for the rest of your points...you do make some good ones. I lament that there exists different denominations in the Christian world that do things differently. Ultimately I feel that this is a result of the fall (man's sinfull nature). Just as Wel Mel hopes for unification in the Muslim world I hope for unification of the Christian church.
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Quote:Why wouldn't it be alcoholic wine???
God doesn't prohibite drinking wine....just drunkeness.
In addition to the last supper Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding party...and we know that it was <i>good</i> wine.
Further, wine was the most common beverage in Jesus' time. Even more so than clean water.
As for the rest of your points...you do make some good ones. I lament that there exists different denominations in the Christian world that do things differently. Ultimately I feel that this is a result of the fall (man's sinfull nature). Just as Wel Mel hopes for unification in the Muslim world I hope for unification of the Christian church.
You must know that Hebrew grape juice was often referred to as wine. So i would say that Jesus peace be upon him converted water into grape juice as one of his miracles that Allah Almighty granted for him, and said that his blood is like grape juice.
Salam
Wael
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Quote:You must know that Hebrew grape juice was often referred to as wine. So i would say that Jesus peace be upon him converted water into grape juice as one of his miracles that Allah Almighty granted for him, and said that his blood is like grape juice.
Salam
Wael
No...was in custom at a wedding for Jews to drink Grape Juice??? No. Wine was customary. In context you can clearer see that it was indeed fermented wine.
John 2
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, <b>“Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”</b>
11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.
Why would the master of the feast say that it was odd that Jesus would save the good wine for last? It was customery to serve good wine in the beginning when people weren't under the influence and could taste well and to serve lesser wine at the end of the party. If it wasn't real wine then why did the master of the feast say this to Jesus???
Matthew 11:19
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a <b>winebibber</b>, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”
You can see here that the Jews even accused Jesus of being drunk because he knew that he had been drinking.
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Quote:No...was in custom at a wedding for Jews to drink Grape Juice??? No. Wine was customary. In context you can clearer see that it was indeed fermented wine.
John 2
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, <b>“Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”</b>
11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.
Why would the master of the feast say that it was odd that Jesus would save the good wine for last? It was customery to serve good wine in the beginning when people weren't under the influence and could taste well and to serve lesser wine at the end of the party. If it wasn't real wine then why did the master of the feast say this to Jesus???
Matthew 11:19
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a <b>winebibber</b>, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”
You can see here that the Jews even accused Jesus of being drunk because he knew that he had been drinking.
Consumption of alcohol has its harmful effects on society, i cant believe that Prophet Jesus pbuh allow such thing. even if you drink little and not get drunk.
Salam
Wael
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06-14-2006, 07:25 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2006, 09:34 AM by Muslimah.)
Bismillah
Quote:As for the rest of your points...you do make some good ones. I lament that there exists different denominations in the Christian world that do things differently. Ultimately I feel that this is a result of the fall (man's sinfull nature). Just as Wel Mel hopes for unification in the Muslim world I hope for unification of the Christian church.
salam
Curious, I m sure that u r getting my point, but may be just dont want to face it. You want to sweep it under the carpet being concerned about facing the truth.
I m not talking Curious about unifiction or difference of practices. I m talking about the origin of the practice per se. Who legislated them? Who established the forms of worship you are practicing. According to you, again you said they are based on bible and early church.
This is where all the problem lies. Early church is not but just human beings. How can u perform your worship to your Lord using human made rituals. I will not elaborate more than this. I m sure u r smart enough to understand. Just ponder Curious. Believe me I m not trying to win a debate or put you down. Not at all Allah KNows my intention. I m just using common sense.
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Quote:Consumption of alcohol has its harmful effects on society, i cant believe that Prophet Jesus pbuh allow such thing. even if you drink little and not get drunk.
Salam
Wael
Well, my understanding of it is based on scripture and the history of the time of Jesus. Yours is base on???
Eating food also has harmfull effects on society. Millions of people eat too much and get obese and suffer many problems because of it. Does this mean that Jesus didn't eat?
<b>1 Timothy 5:23</b>
23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
The Bible clearly teaches against drunkeness. The Bible also speaks of times when one shouldn't drink wine at all...such as not drinking wine if it causes a brother to stumble etc.
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Quote:Bismillah
salam
Curious, I m sure that u r getting my point, but may be just dont want to face it. You want to sweep it under the carpet being concerned about facing the truth.
I m not talking Curious about unifiction or difference of practices. I m talking about the origin of the practice per se. Who legislated them? Who established the forms of worship you are practicing. According to you, again you said they are based on bible and early church.
This is where all the problem lies. Early church is not but just human beings. How can u perform your worship to your Lord using human made rituals. I will not elaborate more than this. I m sure u r smart enough to understand. Just ponder Curious. Believe me I m not trying to win a debate or put you down. Not at all Allah KNows my intention. I m just using common sense.
Our worship is based in scripture. The "early" chruch I speak of were the churhces founded by the Apostle Paul, who you may know, wrote (under divine authority and influence) most of the New Testament.
Don't Shia Muslims go around once a hear and cut their heads up? Was that from the Qur'an???
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