Login

Faris_Mee · (This post was last modified: 05-07-2006, 02:44 AM by Faris_Mee.)

Moshiach: The Messiah 

The Messianic Idea in Judaism

Belief in the eventual coming of the moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of *Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).

However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (achareet ha-yameem), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.

The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.

The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5) He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.

When Will the Moshiach Come?

There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.

Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:

if Israel repented a single day;

if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;

if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;

in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;

in a generation that loses hope;

in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;

What Will the Moshiach Do?

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people. (Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

What About Jesus? 

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.

Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20

Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39

Ezekiel 38:16

Hosea 3:4-3:5

Micah 4

Zephaniah 3:9

Zechariah 14:9

Daniel 10:14

*Rambam

Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, a medieval Jewish scholar. Also known as Maimonides

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Faris_Mee · 05-07-2006, 02:50 AM

Messiah : The Criteria

Judge for yourself: 

Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus...index.html

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy! 

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Certainly NOT Jesus.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus...index.html

Curious Christian · 05-22-2006, 09:36 PM

Below is a list of just 50 of the thousands of OT verses which Jesus fullfilled.

1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.

Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).

- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)

2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.

- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)

- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)

3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.

- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)

4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.

- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.

- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)

5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.

- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)

6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.

- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)

- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)

Birth and Childhood:

7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.

- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.

- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)

8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35. Muslims agree that Jesus was born of a vigin.

- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)

9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:

- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)

- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15.... Matthew 2:16-18.

- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."

- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)

11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1.... Matthew 2:14-15.

- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son

- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)

12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.

- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God

- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene

Passion:

13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14.

- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)

- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2.... Mark 11:7-8.

On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.

- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.

- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.

- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.

- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)

- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)

- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13.... Matthew 27:6-7.

- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.

- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8.... Acts 1:18-20.

- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership

- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)

18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.

- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)

- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7.... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.

- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)

- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.

- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.

- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)

- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."

22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)

- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.

- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)

- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.

- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.

- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.

- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.

- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).

27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.

- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)

- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34.

- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46.

- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12.... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.

- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)

- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)

31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.

- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7.... Mark 14:27.

- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:

- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)

34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15..... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.

- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10..... Matthew 27:52-53.

- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.

- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven

- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.

- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Ministry:

38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5.... John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.

- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah

39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.

40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.

41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.

42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.

43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.

44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.

45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.

46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.

47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.

48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.

49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.

50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12

Do some more research Ferris Mee. The OT and the NT are clear. Jesus in the Messiah.

wel_mel_2 · 05-27-2006, 01:45 AM

Bismillah:

Have you ever ponder over the unfulfilled prophecies that found in the Bible? Or they are not important to you?

Salam

Wael.

Curious Christian · 05-30-2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:Bismillah:

Have you ever ponder over the unfulfilled prophecies that found in the Bible? Or they are not important to you?

Salam

Wael.

Wel mel. What unfullfilled prophecies? Give me some examples. Some "prophecies" are unfullfilled because they haven't happened yet.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2006, 12:14 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Wel mel. What unfullfilled prophecies? Give me some examples. Some "prophecies" are unfullfilled because they haven't happened yet.

CC, let us agree that if there is one unfulfilled prophesy in the Bible, then the whole Bible is disproved to be the word of God. and let us also agree that If ‘Prophecy’ is the test, then Nostradamas’ book should be the best book, to be called…‘the word of God’ - (if you know it).

now let us consider that whatever prophecies you have listed, was right - for the sake of argument. But even if there is one unfulfilled prophecy, the whole Bible is disproved to be the word of God - I can give you a list of unfulfilled prophecies.

For example if you read Genesis, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 12, it says… ‘God told Cain: you will never be able to settle you will be a wanderer.’ Few Verses later on Genesis, Chapter No.4, Verse No.17, says…‘Cain built up a city’ – unfulfilled prophecy.

If you read Jeremiah, Chapter No.36, Verse No.30, it says that…‘Jehoiachin the father of Jehoiachin… no one will be able to sit on his throne - The throne of David, no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin.’ If you read later on, II Kings, Chapter No 24, Verse No 6, it says that… ‘Jehoiachin after he died, later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne’ - Unfulfilled prophecy.

One is sufficient to prove it is not the word of God - I can give plenty. If you read Ezekiel, Chapter No 26, it says that…‘Nebuchader, he will destroyed Tyre.’ We come to know that Alexander the great, was the person who destroyed Tyre - Unfulfilled prophecy.

Isaiah, Chapter No. 7, Verse No 14, says, prophesying of…‘The coming of a person who will be born to a virgin - his name shall be Emmanuel.’ the Christians say - it refers to Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Born to a virgin - the Hebrew word there is ‘amla’, which means not ‘a virgin’- BUT 'a young lady.’ The word for ‘virgin’ in Hebrew is, ‘baitula’, which is not there. Even if you agree - we are using concordance - we agree… ‘Virgin’… ‘Virgin’ - No problem. It says… ‘He will be called Immanuel.’ No where in the Bible is Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is called as Immanuel - Unfulfilled prophecy.

I can give several, plenty unfulfilled prophecies - One is sufficient to prove the Bible wrong - I have only given a few but if you want to have more do let me know.

Salam

Wael

Curious Christian · 05-31-2006, 07:41 PM

wel mel.

Give me some time to answer your questions. Thanks for your questions.

wel_mel_2 · 05-31-2006, 08:08 PM

Bismillah:

Quote:wel mel.

Give me some time to answer your questions. Thanks for your questions.

sure take your time.

Salam

Wael

Curious Christian · 05-31-2006, 11:45 PM

Wel Mel.

Thanks for your interest and questions.

Quote:For example if you read Genesis, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 12, it says… ‘God told Cain: you will never be able to settle you will be a wanderer.’ Few Verses later on Genesis, Chapter No.4, Verse No.17, says…‘Cain built up a city’ – unfulfilled prophecy

God punished Cain who was a "tiller of the ground" (Gen. 4 2) for killing his brother Abel. The curse which God put upon Cain in Genesis is largely poetic in nature as it reads. It is similar to when God cursed the serpent (Satan) in Gen 3:15.

Gen 3:14-15 states:

"...On you belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall burise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

Gen 3:15 is the first prophecy about the coming of Jesus. Did Satan literally "bruise" the heel of Jesus? Did Jesus literally bruise the head of Satan? No. Like much of the Old Testament this is poetic and allegorical.

Quote:If you read Jeremiah, Chapter No.36, Verse No.30, it says that…‘Jehoiachin the father of Jehoiachin… no one will be able to sit on his throne - The throne of David, no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin.’ If you read later on, II Kings, Chapter No 24, Verse No 6, it says that… ‘Jehoiachin after he died, later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne’ - Unfulfilled prophecy.

This clearly isn't an unfilled Prophecy. You quoted II Kings 24:6.

Here is what II Kings 24 8-9 says about it.

II Kings 24 8-9

8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. His mother’s name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 9 And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.

According to Babylonian records Jerusalem fell just after those events transpired. Jehoiachin certaintley suffered. And nobody sat after Jehoichin...that is fact. Also, to be so literal...when Jeremiah says "no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin" who is to say that this doesn't refer to the younger???

Quote:Isaiah, Chapter No. 7, Verse No 14, says, prophesying of…‘The coming of a person who will be born to a virgin - his name shall be Emmanuel.’ the Christians say - it refers to Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Born to a virgin - the Hebrew word there is ‘amla’, which means not ‘a virgin’- BUT 'a young lady.’ The word for ‘virgin’ in Hebrew is, ‘baitula’, which is not there. Even if you agree - we are using concordance - we agree… ‘Virgin’… ‘Virgin’ - No problem. It says… ‘He will be called Immanuel.’ No where in the Bible is Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is called as Immanuel - Unfulfilled prophecy.

Again, like Genesis much is poetic and allegorical. "Emmanuel" means "God With Us." Jesus, being God, was "with us." The original readers of this book would know that Emmanual means "God With Us" and would understand it to mean that the Messiah's coming is upon them. I agree about the word "virgin". In that text "virgin" doesn't necessarily mean "a virgin" as you put it...but it may.

The very same Hebrew word "amla" is used in Gen 24:16.

Gen 24:16

16 The girl was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever lain with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again.

As you can see...in this instance the Hebrew word "amla" DOES mean an actual virgin....But I thought the Koran states that Jesus was born of a virgin???

The Bible...especially the OT as you quoted is as great a historical document as any that exists from that the time in which it was written. Time and time again historical and archeological finds confirm the Bibles historocity. That in itself is a miracle.

But since you brought up the topic of unfullfilled prophecies I must respectfully ask you about your Quran. 

Koran 20:85 and 20:87 state that the calf worshipped by the Israelites at Mt. Horeb was molded by a Samaritan. The word "Samaritan" was not coined until 722 B.C.--several years after the events recorded in the Exodus?

Koran 2:29 state that Allah created the earth first and then the heavens.

Koran 79:27-30 state that Allah created the heavens and then the earth.

(Koran 96:2)

Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.

(Koran 21:30)

...WE made EVERY (including man) living thing

from water...

(Koran 15:26)

He created man from sounding clay, from mud

moulded into shape...

(Koran 3:59)

...He created him from dust, then said to him

Be and he was.

(Koran 19:67)

But does not man call to mind that WE created

him before out of nothing.

Was man created out of a blood clot, dust, clay, water or nothing??? I didn't post the verse but the Koran also says that man was created from a sperm drop??

(Koran 21:76)

Noah, when he cried to US, aforetime: We listened

to his paryer and delivered him and his family

from great distress.

(Koran 11:42-43)

...And the waves came between them, and the son was

among those overwhelmed in the Flood.

??

What about this?

(Koran 2:62)

Those who believe in the Quran...and the

christians...shall have their reward with their

Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor they shall

grieve.

Granted...those aren't necessarily unfullfilled prophecies in the Quran rather contradictions. I started a new thread here to ask about specific unfullfilled prophecies in the Quran.

Again, I don't mind defending my faith...I hope I mean you no offense.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 06-01-2006, 02:12 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Thanks for your interest and questions.

CC, first of all, those were not questions, but facts about unfulfilled prophecies found in the Bible. Now your interpretations are very ambiguous and some of them are impossible for any sane person to accept. So let us examine what you just said:

Quote:God punished Cain who was a "tiller of the ground" (Gen. 4 2) for killing his brother Abel. The curse which God put upon Cain in Genesis is largely poetic in nature as it reads. It is similar to when God cursed the serpent (Satan) in Gen 3:15.
Gen 3:14-15 states:

"...On you belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall burise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

Gen 3:15 is the first prophecy about the coming of Jesus. Did Satan literally "bruise" the heel of Jesus? Did Jesus literally bruise the head of Satan? No. Like much of the Old Testament this is poetic and allegorical.

What all of these has to do with God’s punishment to Cain? I know that God punished him but at the same time he told him that he will never be able to settle
and that he will never be a wanderer.
And what happened after this??? Cain built up a whole City. Means he was settled and of course he was a wanderer.

Quote:Here is what II Kings 24 8-9 says about it.
II Kings 24 8-9

8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. His mother’s name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 9 And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.

According to Babylonian records Jerusalem fell just after those events transpired. Jehoiachin certaintley suffered. And nobody sat after Jehoichin...that is fact. Also, to be so literal...when Jeremiah says "no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin" who is to say that this doesn't refer to the younger???

Again you are taking me far away from what is originally written in Jeremiah. The prophecy clearly said NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SIT ON HIS THRONE. The throne of David. No one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin. But what actually happened that after the death of Jehoiachin later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne’ we don’t need to stretch the words to suite our desires. It is plain English. NO ONE WILL SIT, but later on somebody sat. The Babylonian records shouldn’t be more accurate than the Bible. Am I right?

Quote:Again, like Genesis much is poetic and allegorical. "Emmanuel" means "God With Us." Jesus, being God, was "with us." The original readers of this book would know that Emmanual means "God With Us" and would understand it to mean that the Messiah's coming is upon them. I agree about the word "virgin". In that text "virgin" doesn't necessarily mean "a virgin" as you put it...but it may.

The prophecy said that HE WILL BE CALLED GOD WITH US. Show me one verse where ANYONE called Jesus GOD WITH US. Or even GOD.

he was called Son of man, Son of God, lord, master etc… but nowhere was he called GOD WITH US. Agains your interpretation fall under the ambiguous category.

Quote:The very same Hebrew word "amla" is used in Gen 24:16.
Gen 24:16

16 The girl was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever lain with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again.

As you can see...in this instance the Hebrew word "amla" DOES mean an actual virgin....But I thought the Koran states that Jesus was born of a virgin???

Let see what Rabbi Tovia Singer said about the term alma. And pay attention to the last sentence of his explanation.

Quote:The claim that “every place the word alma appears in the Bible it is always referring to a virgin” is incorrect. This is not the first time I have come across a Christian who has made this erroneous assertion; and each and every time I hear it I am puzzled as to why these apologists do not do their research before making this claim. This is especially the case in our modern age where computer technology has made simple word studies so quick and easy to research. I will briefly explain your question for the readers of our website who are unfamiliar with this subject.
For nearly two millennia the church has insisted that the Hebrew word alma can only mean “virgin.” The church must hold this position because Matthew 1:22-23 translates alma in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin.” The first Gospel quotes this well-known verse to provide the only “Old Testament” proof text for the supposed virgin birth of Jesus. The stakes are high for Christendom, because if the Hebrew word alma does not mean virgin, Matthew is misquoting the prophet Isaiah, and both a key tenet of Christianity and the credibility of the first Gospel collapses.

How accurate is this Christian claim? The place to explore this issue is in the Jewish scriptures. If the Hebrew word alma means virgin then each usage in the Bible must be either a clear reference to a virgin or at least be ambiguous. The word alma appears in the Jewish scriptures seven times. If even one reference clearly refers to a woman who is not a virgin, then Matthew’s rendition of Isaiah 7:14 becomes untenable.

One of the places where the uncommon Hebrew word alma appears in the Bible is in Proverbs 30:18-20 which reads,

There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’alma]. This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

In the above three verses, King Solomon compares a man with an alma to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea. What do these three things all have in common? They leave no trace. After the eagle has flown across the sky, determining that the eagle had ever flown there is impossible. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship has moved across the sea, the water comes together behind it and there is no way to tell that a ship had ever passed through there. Similarly, King Solomon informs us that once a man has been with an alma there is also no trace of the fornication that had occurred between them. Therefore, in the following verse (verse 20) King Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman has eaten (a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual activity by exclaiming, “I have done no wrong.” The word alma clearly does not mean virgin.

In the same way that in the English language the words “young woman” have no bearing on whether virginity is present or not, in the Hebrew language there is no relationship between the words alma and virgin. On the contrary, it is usually a young woman who bears children. Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin birth, he would have used the word betulah1 not alma. Betulah is a common word in the Jewish scriptures, and can only mean “virgin.”


Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer

if you also read the Catholic Encyclopedia on the word Alma we read:

Quote:A Hebrew word signifying a "young woman", unmarried as well as married, and thus distinct from bethulah, "a virgin" (see Hebrew Lexicons)

by the way, as a Muslim, I am a passionate defender of the virgin birth of Christ, and all Muslims should be so. Why? Because this is one of the very important themes in the Qur’an.

The Qur’an tells a great deal about the birth, works, and miracles of Jesus (`Isa in Arabic). His story starts with the angels’ call to Mary (Maryam in Arabic) by which they declare the miracle of God—a son without a father. Mary is surprised:

[she said, “My Lord! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. When He decides on something, He just says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is.”] (3:47)

There are many passages in the Qur’an in which Mary is highly praised. We read that angels said to her, [“Maryam, God has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you over all other women”] (3:42).

In Chapter 4:156, those who propose [a monstrous slander against Maryam] are cursed. Actually, there is quite a long surah in the Muslim Scripture titled “Maryam” (Mary) in which the nobility of Mary and the virgin birth is told in detail. In another cgaoter, we read,

[Maryam, the daughter of `Imran, who guarded her chastity—We breathed Our Spirit into her and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Book and was one of the devout] (66:12)

These verses make clear that Mary—along with Jesus himself—is a sacred figure for all Muslims. Thus, any disrespect, insult, or attack on Mary or Jesus Christ is directed also toward Islam. We can add Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, and many other Old Testament figures to the list—they are all praised in the Qur’an.

Quote:The Bible...especially the OT as you quoted is as great a historical document as any that exists from that the time in which it was written. Time and time again historical and archeological finds confirm the Bibles historocity. That in itself is a miracle.

What about the Hindu scriptures? have you read them? or Buddha Scriptures... they are also contains prophecies, historical documents and they are very deep. they are even advanced in Science, medicine etc, how about the Nostradamas’ book?.. Will you believe in all these books to be God's words?

Quote:But since you brought up the topic of unfullfilled prophecies I must respectfully ask you about your Quran. 
Koran 20:85 and 20:87 state that the calf worshipped by the Israelites at Mt. Horeb was molded by a
Samaritan. The word "Samaritan" was not coined until 722 B.C.--several years after the events recorded in the Exodus?

Koran 2:29 state that Allah created the earth first and then the heavens.

Koran 79:27-30 state that Allah created the heavens and then the earth.

(Koran 96:2)

Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.

(Koran 21:30)

...WE made EVERY (including man) living thing

from water...

(Koran 15:26)

He created man from sounding clay, from mud

moulded into shape...

(Koran 3:59)

...He created him from dust, then said to him

Be and he was.

(Koran 19:67)

But does not man call to mind that WE created

him before out of nothing.

Was man created out of a blood clot, dust, clay, water or nothing??? I didn't post the verse but the Koran also says that man was created from a sperm drop??

(Koran 21:76)

Noah, when he cried to US, aforetime: We listened

to his paryer and delivered him and his family

from great distress.

(Koran 11:42-43)

...And the waves came between them, and the son was

among those overwhelmed in the Flood.

??

What about this?

(Koran 2:62)

Those who believe in the Quran...and the

christians...shall have their reward with their

Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor they shall

grieve.

Granted...those aren't necessarily unfullfilled prophecies in the Quran rather contradictions. I started a new thread here to ask about specific unfullfilled prophecies in the Quran.

Again, I don't mind defending my faith...I hope I mean you no offense.

No offense at all. If you don’t understand the Qur’an that doesn’t mean that the Qur’an is wrong or contains any mistake. ALhamdulelah since the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH until this moment no one was able to point out a single mistake in the Qur’an. however I can see that you have started another thread about the Qur’an so am going to answer your questions regarding the Qur’an in the right place.

Salam

Wael.

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me