I have many questions.

[Mahasvapna]

Greetings to all who care to read this.


I am an american. I'm not crazy about it - but I am grateful for the benefits the virtue of my birth has allowed me. I am not christian, exactly - to my own heart, truth is inherent in the universe, and exists independant of religion and philosophy. To me, this Truth is the undeniability of existence, of conciousness, and of our interactions.


In my country, it is often difficult to know what is fact (not Truth, neccessarily) and what is not. I suppose this is true of much of the world. The media is a commercial entity, the platform of the economy at times - at least, so it has seemed to me. This kind of distrust exists between all governments and their people, I suppose.


My country tells me that muslims hate me for no other reason than that I was born in america to a christian family. I find this hard to believe. Perhaps it is only because I have never been possessed of religious Zeal. To do good works in this world, it seems to me that religion is moot - there are billions of people on this earth and many of them are suffering. In my heart, I feel that all suffering begins with Man's actions. By virtue of this feeling, I believe that only by respecting one another's paths in life, and by understanding that collectively we have the ability to create a paradise on earth. I am not interested in guidance, and feel no call to islam, or any other religion for that matter. I do not need confirmation of God, he is obvious to me.


None the less, there is pain, there is war. I believe these things are essential to the ultimate evolution and growth of mankind - for if we have no struggle, then how are we to grow? How is iron to be shaped into something beautiful if it is not put to the coals?


So, it seems to me that the friction between Islam and the West - and indeed all other similarly misguided conflicts of this sort (racism, nationalism, any of these baseless conflicts) - exists to be overcome, and in the process hopefully we will as the race of Man, rather than the subdivisions therein, understand the significance of the differences we have.


Pardon my tendancy to be so opinionated - to the enqueries.


I am taught that the followers of Islam, if they are truly dedicated, must somehow take part in the Jihad against non-muslims - I may have misinterpreted exactly the details of what constitutes Jihad, but this is not the relavant detail here. What I have difficulty with is why this would be so? I can understand religious Zeal to a point - all of us seek meaning for our lives, seek some kind of confirmation that we are not really transient things. We fear oblivion, deep within the core of our existence, and so we subscribe to any number of mythologies or ideals which can assure us that we need not fear non-being. I cannot understand, though, how the destruction of others can somehow achieve this in-transience. What is the philosophy of Jihad? Why would Allah be pleased with this? I can on one hand understand the human philosophy of peace through homogenization, it follows some logic - but, there will most certainly always be friction between groups of people. Even two individuals will always find contention - so it seems to me that following this philosophy of homogenization is flawed. In the end, true peace seems to me to be a matter of simply not killing. When the threat of death is no longer an object, no nation need fear another. This is extreme idealism, of course, but is it not just as flawed as it's opposite, and for the same reasons?


I don't believe that we should invade the middle east. I don't think it's our business - this war is politically and economically motivated, according to what I am able to understand from the scheme of it all. At the same time, though, many of the countries in the middle east have spent decades and centuries under opression. I cannot myself deny that the way Islamic countries treat their women is abhorrent - not because I feel that Islam is a bad religion, but because the central tenet of human thought is preservation of the Self - to inflict upon another, regardless of gender or creed, is a crime against oneself as much as another. I do beleive this should be stopped - not to enforce my own beliefs upon the men of Islam, but rather to preserve the dignity, life, and wellbeing of the women. THey are, however, not the only cultures to produce such a social structure, so I see this as a socialogical condition rather than a religious flaw. However, what I do not understand is this: Why are there such exceptions to peace allowed within the Islamic faith? I could ask the same question of any other religion that sanctions such treatment of it's followers, or any human being for this matter, but honestly, no other religious group is cited as wanting to kill me. Christians kill as well, but at least their bible does forbid it. This is a human flaw, not a religious one. The same could be said of such practices in Islam, I suppose, but I have seen many verses (translated to english, understand,) which could very easily be interpreted to sanction violence. I will make no solid assumptions, as I do not practice Islam.


It is said by every religion that their own ways are the only ways - well, not all religions, actually, only those generally known to be violent historically.... - but one cannot deny that social structure developes first, then theological structures develope as a means to explain and justify life, and then sociological changes take place to accomodate interpretation of that explanation. This is the way human cultures develope.


Most monotheistic religions cite their founders as the strict authority on existence. Who's to say who is truly correct in that citation? The span of time is great, certainly dwarfing the span of the life of humanity. In one thousand years, who's to say that all of this will not be ancient history, the long forgotten squabbles of a childlike race of Man? Transience, no matter how hard we struggle against it, is inherent to the nature of the universe. Everything ends, everything changes. Only it's total existence is in-transient, it's configuration is never the same. This isn't religious talk, this is direct observation of the world, contemplation on the nature of those observations and of what is observed, and the corresponding intuitive understanding of the total representative truth of existence.


To me, this conflict makes no sense. To my own thoughts - humanly flawed as they ultimately must be, as all human thought must be, even those thoughts of the prophets of all holy books - it is simply an act of barbarism on everyone's part. To kill for any reason except to sustain one's own life is counter to human thought. We all wish to survive and live life, so why deny others that same right?


I have felt removed from this war, as many in my country must also feel. It is not on our shores, it is across the ocean. I feel almost guilty for this lack of insight, because it is such an important matter. My questions are unclear, I realize - it is the way I think, I suppose. I would deeply appreciate any meaningful insight into the nature, not the facts, of this issue. Facts are transient and unreliable. Nature is up for interpretation, observation, and speculation - Truth, though, is inherent. I hope that through a thorough accounting of the nature of this war, the Truth can be made obvious to all of us.


I have considered the idea that perhaps Islam is simply being twisted towards evil ends. That may be true... but in this case the responsibility for the war is placed squarely on the shoulders of those who subscribe to it. I personally tend to believe that if a holy scripture can be interpreted, by any stretch of philosophy, to say that one man MUST kill another, it is invalid, as is the reasoning behind it. I have a hard time believing that the kind of man - in this case Muhammed - who would believe in saving his people, in guiding his people, towards an ultimate paradise, would wish for the destruction of his fellow man. To say that what is wished for is the Conversion, rather than death - and that ultimately destruction is the result of the unwillingness to convert - reduces one to nothing more than a petty Tyrant amongst ignorant people, a bully who only wishes to control, offering an impossible ultimatum.


Many thanks for all insight.


Reminder: All that is, is the sum of the Truth of the Divine - be that Allah, Jehovah, or any of the many names - therefore, there are no lies, only Truth unwilling to be seen so easily.

[alliex]

Bismillah,


Mahasvapna, firstly welcome to the bored.


In regards to the war at the moment, Muslims don't like what is going on either. Regarding the terriost we son't like them giving us a bad name.


In regard to Jihad, I think the media has made this a black work but over dramatising it. Jihad means to defend your religion. So if someone was saying something bad about Allah etc, you would correct them. If someone try to hit me cause I was Muslim then I can defend myslef. I can't just go out and kill non beleivers for no reason. There are morals.


In regard to how I look at Americans. I beleive you are the same as us. Living a life. But I do think your country holds the most power in the world. All westen societys follow Americans. But it has been like that for centuries, one country has the majority of power and then it falls some where else. If you think about it Rome had a lot of power for some time.


I dislike what is going on now with the war. I think it is unessacary to have. I dislike how my country has become racist. I dislike that they say bad things about my religion. But all religions have been persecuted over time. I just wish the media could educate people regarding the goodness of Islam.


It is good to hear from another point of view.


Wasalam


Alliex

[soulperson]

Greetings to all who care to read this.


Hi Mahasvapna',


Welcome to this board.I am Ali from Saudi Arabia,English language teacher.I am a Muslim.I was born as being a moderate Muslim.I like religion and practice it daily.I found in it happiness and peace after a long time of mental sufffering and confusion.


I agree to what you have said in your article.You are almost right.We live in dilema in this world due to the effect of the media.It played a pivotal role to brainwash our minds and conceal the light of God.


You and me are from the same origin,the same features created by One God.You may see that obvious in your facial features and qualities.It means what pleases you can please me and what bothers you can bother me.We are made from the same stuff as humans.


I believe that you are more educated and insightful than me.But you are in need to know religion better.The Gudance from God and the purpose of our living.


Are we created to eat and drink?live and die?There is a wisdom in our exitence which many people are ignorant of.This life is a temprorary not eternal.The evidence is that many lived and died.Where are they now?


I beg your pardon if I offended your feeling.I respect u as a human being and I have many friends in USA as well.I believe in tolerance and respect and shun violnace and contempt.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Salam Mahasvapna and soulperson


This might be a late welcome but we do welcome both of u to the board.


Mahasvapna, pls enjoy your stay and feel free to ask question.


soulperson jazakum Allah khairan for your detailed reply may Allah Makes your membership here as beneficial as possible for u and us. :)

[arclight]

You and me are from the same origin,the same features created by One God.You may see that obvious in your facial features and qualities.It means what pleases you can please me and what bothers you can bother me.We are made from the same stuff as humans

To paraphrase Shakespeare:


Hath we not hands,


organs dimensions, senses, affections, passions;


fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject


to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means,


warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer


as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?


If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you


poison us, do we not die?

In regard to Jihad, I think the media has made this a black work but over dramatising it.

The biggest reason for the misunderstanding of the word comes from Saddam. When the first Gulf War started, he called for a Jihad. So every non-arabic speaking person took that as being literally a holy war.

[Mahasvapna]

The biggest reason for the misunderstanding of the word comes from Saddam. When the first Gulf War started, he called for a Jihad. So every non-arabic speaking person took that as being literally a holy war.

This is an interesting thing to hear. I suppose religion has always been, and may always be, a tool to galvinize the masses towards whatever ends the power chooses. Cultural parallels of religion have been a focus of my curiosity for sometime.


Of course I am not offended by what you had to say. Perspective is the food of God, in my opinion. A different life, a different experience, a different flavor.


There is no question that we are all in the same boat - we are all human, and we have a world to share and take care of together. The fact that so many people are at odds because of religion - an institution who's singular purpose SHOULD be to create peace and happiness on earth - is what I have a hard time understanding and accepting. I understand the necessity of adversity for spiritual growth, regardless of one's path - for all paths seem to agree that suffering exists to be transcended - but I feel that religion and spirituality should be the source of hope and peace, not the source of adversity. As it stands now, this is not the case. If my nation were muslim, or your nation were christian, I wonder if the events of this millenium so far would have been different. It is difficult to say. It is a hard truth that the mind of Masses is never as discerning as the mind of the individual - even though our greatest achievements come to pass only when we work together. It is no wonder the brain is located in only one part of the body.


Thank you for your compliment; I believe matters of insight and education are relative. I know virtually nothing about Islam. As far as far as religion goes, I understand it from a few perspectives. I was raised christian first, then Mormon - they are similar in practice, but with several fundamental differences in world view. When i was young, I decided that neither of these religions offered me any connection to God - or whatever was beyond my Self. They were simply a tradition of practices and empty words. Though for some people those words had meaning and power, this wasn't the focus. The Connection itself is never the focus hear - only the assumptions of what such a connection requires.


No man can know the mind of God thoroughly, and any guidance from on high committed to paper is subject to the same material free will as any human individual. This means only that the messages from God are only clear once - after this it is only a facsimile, lacking the depth of truth and wisdom that God's words inherently have. Perhaps God did speak directly to Muhammed, Jesus, or Moses, or all three, but only they individually knew the magnitude of truth and power behind those words. For the rest of us, I believe that no amount of tradition will connect you to the voice of God. Only individual devotion, and actions both internal and external which reflect that devotion, can grant audience with God and enlighten us as to our individual purpose and meaning in life.


I asked this question a few years ago. "Why am I here? What is My purpose in life? How shall I adress suffering in my world? What name shall I call God, and how shall I worship him? Does he need to be worshipped?"


I examined the ways by which I live one by one, sometimes with help from those around me who can see me without my own views obscuring the details. By working to know myself, and working to understand those around me - and most importantly by recognizing the significance of our relationships - I came to realize my own personal connection to God.


I know that religion is important - if it were not, it would not occupy so much history, so much significance in our minds - but I do not know how or why. Christians will tell me that CHRISTIANTY - not religion at large - is important because it is the message of God himself, as though he were a person like you or I, telling us how to live in a way that will please him, and that doing so will ultimately grant us an afterlife which is good. This message is mixed with one of ultimate and unconditional forgiveness, even as conditions are laid down for that same thing. By and By, I began to see the flaws in the christian dogma. In this universe, there are no contradictions. Contradictions, I have come to understand, represent human flaws that have been projected onto the world we inhabit.


I wonder often if relgion is not a product of our Transient Nature. All things pass, all material existence changes eventually. Even a diamond will one day decay. But, we see the material world and think of it's state of change - we call it Death, but this is just a label for what we percieve, though we don't even really know what it is we are looking at, in most cases - and believe that this means all things pass. However, Transience is ultimately an illusion created by the limited perspective of the human experience. Really, the material which makes up this world is never either created or destroyed. Our scientific understanding - and I make no distinction between scientific truth and spiritual truth; either one is as complicated and meaningful as the other - tells us that or material world is, for all intents and purposes, eternal. It will always be, in some for, and has always been.


And so it will. Yet we believe that life is transient - in fact, life will most likely always exist. I am not concerned with Aliens, or life beyond our own planet, though. Not yet, because this age is about the growth of Mankind as an individual race. Like individual humans, we must grow up and pay our dues before we life amongst our neighbors as independants.


So, there came a time when I was able to look at the idea of my own death and not see transience - not see and ending, but simply a transition from one state into another. My own perspective is an illusion of my shape. I have a brain, a body, which functions in a very specific way to give me a means by which to experience the world, but it is not a vehicle that I stepped into, once it was constructed. My soul is not seperate from my body or mind. Rather, my Ego is an illusion of circumstance which will disappear when this machine can no longer continue to generate a charge. Like a magnet that has been permanently demagnetized - it is simply a matter of inefficient cells too old to continue.


All of this I say only to say: we seek to understand and know the mind of god, and when someone comes up with something good, they write it down and say that it is the Way. But, to God, to the Greater Mind, the Atma, the Brahmin, the Universal Subconcious or the Oversoul - nothing changes. God is not compassionate - his love is a necessity, our existence is necessity. God without existence is empty, inert, eternally nothing. So what is the point of devoting oneself to a dogma of taboos, of social ritual, of empty traditions that serve only to dress up God in various costumes and make a show of thinking we understand. We demonstrate our limited, human scope of perspective, and in the end it gains us nothing.


It isn't to say I don't believe there is a purpose to existence. Actually, I believe existence is necessary for the evolution of God himself. One may wonder, how God can evolve, but I believe that above God is a greater God, and Above this one is yet another. God cannot be Finite. He exists outside of Scope, space, or time. Outside of Perspective, yet the Substance of Perspective. There is nothing BUT God, in his totality. Our presence in existence is the literal manifestation of the necessary presence of division. Only through incarnation is the Whole made into Parts. And though God is aware of all of his parts at once, as I am aware of my body, his parts are not so directly aware of him. Does my arm know it's place in my body - both what it can and cannot do, what it is meant for, or what my intention for it is? It is debatable, but I think not. I think i simply is an extension of my own Self, which does whatever I tell it to, within it's capabilities. I think the


realtionship between God and Existence is the same, exactly.


These are all only my opinions of course. I have questions about Islam, as well, because it is as I said, a matter outside of my own perspective. You say there is a wisdom in life that many are ignorant of. I would agree - but what is the islamic perspective that is singularly unique? Religions have a tendancy to declare themselves the Only Truth, the Only Path, as though god were so narrow minded, and so out of touch with his creations that he would not design more than one path to knowing him. Variety and Curiosity are the two foundations of human nature. No matter how advanced you become, spiritually, these two things will always be the foundation of how and why you got to where you are. Given such a natural state of human nature, why would our creator grant a blissful reunion to only a fraction of the human race, while damning others to a negative afterlife? Much of religion in general, as a social concept, runs counter to reason and logic - both tools given to us by our creator, as everything else is. Faith and Logic do not really contradict - in all cases one or the other must be flawed.


On the other hand, the belief that one's path is the only path would seem to be the inevitable result of true devotion. Overcoming that sense, and understanding that devotion itself IS the path, not the transient traditions we use to justify it, is something I hope can be attained by anyone - I have long thought that religion exists in part to give some hope to those for whom life is not meant to take them through the journey of personal spirituality. Perhaps devotional traditions are enough, regardless of where they come from. Many questions.


I do not normally believe in delivering my opinions or questions with obscuring pleasantries to soften their 'political' impact. However given the cultural divide that might exist here, please know that I speak forcefully only because I have spent many years tempering my thoughts, my assumptions, and reworking them again and again. I speak with confidence out of conviction for my own connection to god. But, I do not believe one should ridgedly cling to a single line of wisdom or understanding. The spectrum of perspective is polarized between the narrow mind of Man and the Limitless mind of God. Within this, there is no wrong perspective because every thought is within it's purview. Like the color spectrum, not all colors strike everyone as beautiful or interesting. But that does not mean they are not truly colors.


Hopefully you'll have a great deal to say, I am most interested to hear your perspective. Hopefully we'll have a great deal more to exchange in the future as well.


Peace


Mahasvapna

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


that was long post indeed ;)


could you please just ask straight questiosns and bring them one by one so we can focus on one topic at the time.


thanks alot.


by the way, are you a Hindu?


Salam


Wael

[Mahasvapna]

Bismillah:


that was long post indeed ;)


could you please just ask straight questiosns and bring them one by one so we can focus on one topic at the time.


thanks alot.


by the way, are you a Hindu?


Salam


Wael

Namaste,


:lol: Yeah, I have a tendancy to slip into a particular line of thought and stay there until it runs out. My apologies for any bleeding eyes :blink:


My questions are largely conceptual. To come out and paraphrase is easier to understand, but doing so narrows the concept into something much more superficial. If I had the proper cultural experience, I would simply spend time in meditation to answer these questions. As I do not have that context, It's difficult to fit the concept into a framework of words.


Ah, I would say that of all the traditions of wisdom, the hindu tradition is my focus. Mahasvapna is a sanskrit word that means "the great dream." I took it on because it best quantifies my view towards knowledge and structured existence.


After some consideration, here are a few direct questions to start with. They are more conceptually abstract in my mind than they sound.


1. How does Islam quantify the individual connection to Allah, and is it considered dogma or individually specific?


At first glance the answer is simple - obviously any connection to God is going to be personal. However, for instance - in christianity there is a concept that I'm sure you're familiar with of being 'saved'. Well, specificall protestant, I am not catholic and cannot speak for that tradition. It's this concept of "accepting jesus as one's personal lord and saviour." I actually read another thread that involved a discussion on this, but found it to all together be rather a preach-off than a discussion. I'm am basically asking, how does the muslim tradition represent or assure this connection? I'm not religious at all, in terms of tradition, but the connection I have to God is very present and real to me. What is the average Muslim's sense of this?


But, the thing is that I do not want to hear verses from the Qu'ran. Not that I have no respect for the words - I find every holy text to be full of useful wisdom, when one is able to take everything in proper context (and I believe this to be a personal achievment of wisdom beyond the text itself). Rather, I am seeking a personal understanding and view. I know that such a thing can be difficult to convey with words alone - it is experiential and the best way to know it is to feel it.


2. How does the Islamic faith justify the many differences between faiths?


This is also more complicated than the initial look may indicate. This is an age old question of 'If my faith is the only right faith, how can yours be right as well?" With no personal context, of course.


I have long believed, as I mentioned in the short story above, that devotion and the right intent is all one needs to live a good life right on through to the other side. However, obviously there is some problem within Islam - and some other traditions as well - of converting to another faith. I already examined a thread dealing with that particular issue, and perhaps understand it better now. However, how does a Muslim who is truly devout gain the equilibrium of conscience to understand that there can be many paths to Allah, to God? Or is this egalitarian attitude not permissible? What is the message of Islam regarding the judgement of others?


3. what is the Islamic view of sociological taboos such as homosexuality, psychosis, etc.?


This I ask because the individual views of traditions vary soooo greatly that it sometimes astounds me. Some traditions suggest an origin of such things, some simply discard it as a fallacy in human perspective - in other words, they don't really exist, they are simply misguided actions - others actually embrace a spectrum of human experience and assert that these kinds of things are simply parts of the fabric of human nature which express themselves as naturally as creativity or reason.


Finally,


4. What is the Islamic view towards sexuality in general?


I ask this question because I have begun to see a pattern within religious traditions between their views on Sexuality, and their traditions of domestication and domestic life (domestication = the process by and through which we accustom our children and one another to the local sociological structure of communication with others and with the self.)


I will ask about the domestic life of Muslims at another time, though, as I will need to contemplate the proper questions to ask to get at what I am looking for. At the moment I don't know enough about other aspects of the unique elements of Islam to know what to ask.


Namaste,


Mahasvapna

[Mahasvapna]

As an aside, many of my curiosities about other religions, and other cultures all together, are centered around the mode of consciousness, if you will, that people of various paths develope over a life of exposure to their local sociological macrocosm. Our spirituality, especially, is one of the most critical factors in this developement. People of various faiths THINK differently on a very fundamental level. What is important to someone who has grown up in one faith is not so important to someone of a different faith. This is common sense in the understanding of cultural differences.


What I am targeting here is an understanding of the unique elements of consciousness within the sociological construct of Islam as a whole. I realize that it will vary greatly in the details - but the fundamental elements at the base of the construct will almost undoubtedly be universal. I could peruse books and articles on the subject, but Discussion and debate are the best ways that I have found to come to a more complete understanding than what the perspective of one author will generally allow for.


I think that the source of most cultural friction is simply an inability to fully comprehend how one another's thoughts are moving. This Protocol of consciousness is very real and easily demonstrable - or at least, it has proven so to me - and the effects of the differences can be crippling to communication, when not present beside individual minds who are able to keep their minds wide open at all times. I have been a 'fortune teller' after a fashion, for many years, for instance, and I have found that I can more easily read a person who is closer to my own protocol of consciousness. The further away they are, the larger the gap between our thought processes, the harder it is to connect at all.


So, I will have many questions dealing with what is important to the average Islamic devotee. Not in order to create blanket generalizations, mind - rather, to find the common threads which will almost certainly connect the vast bulk of the demographic.


Namaste :peace:


Mahasvapa

[Mahasvapna]

Ah, another important question I forgot to post:


5. What is the islamic view towards the origin of sin?


For example, christians believe that Eve was tempted by a snake int he garden of eden, etc., many generations later we are all born with original sin. I have interpreted this to mean that the availability of the intention to do evil is ever present in human consciousness - in other words, we all have the potential to do evil. I have my own views, but I am looking to understand the islamic view. It is possible the three faiths - christianity, judaism, Islam - all subscribe to the same story as they have the same roots, but I do not know for sure and would like a personal view on the subject.


thanks!


namaste,


Mahasvapna