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The Mercy of Islam
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03-28-2006, 02:27 PM
Bismillah salam AlShamms Well I do share UmmZ's opinion about you, u r one of the rare posters whom I met who enjoys a respectful and calm attitude. But when one states the truth, in some cases it becomes inevitable to hurt. So if it was me who hurt your feeling, pls accept my apologies. And if u decide to remain and stay silent of course this is your decision. 
03-28-2006, 09:55 PM
Peace.... Muslimah, what you feel is the truth, is not seen that way to me. So no, for me, it wasn't about feelings, it was about trying to foster understanding one of the other. Wel_Mel, to answer your question as to whom was speaking, the book of Hebrews is attributed to Paul, who under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, penned the letter. Shamms 
03-29-2006, 05:37 AM
Bismillah: Quote:Wel_Mel, to answer your question as to whom was speaking, the book of Hebrews is attributed to Paul, who under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, penned the letter. thanks for the clarification, but first of all the book of Revelation as you may know is a 'dream' so it is not really sufficient to convince anyone to believe that "God Almighty" called <b>God</b> 'Jesus' <i>a 'God' </i> it is bit weird and confusing. So what i request is to show me one single verse from the lips of Jesus Christ <b>himself</b> where he say plainly i am God or where he say worship me. if he say this statement or similar direct command that he was God and deserve worship, then please "produce your proof if you are truthful” said the Qur’an. Please don’t think that im attaching your beliefs, not at all, im trying somehow to open your eyes a little bit to the fact that if Jesus really was God then why he deny his divinity in the Bible when someone called him good? If he refused to be called good, then how will he accept to be called God? Salam Wael.
03-29-2006, 05:22 PM
Quote:Bismillah: Peace.... No, I don't take what you ask as an attack, though I do find it funny that you attempt to "open my eyes a little bit". My eyes are open. The account I provided was in Hebrews, not Revelations. Anyway, to your answer. Christ did claim divinity, I will show you five of them. The Jews understood him, and were angry with his claim to divinity all three times. The first claim is here: Matthew 12:1 - At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. Matthew 12:2 - But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. Matthew 12:3 - But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; Matthew 12:4 - How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests Matthew 12:5 - Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless Matthew 12:6 - But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. Matthew 12:7 - But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Matthew 12:8 - For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. This is also reported in Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5. The second time Christ worked on the sabbath this happened: John 5:5 - And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. John 5:6 - When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? John 5:7 - The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. John 5:8 - Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. John 5:9 - And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. John 5:10 - The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. John 5:11 - He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk. John 5:12 - Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? John 5:13 - And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. John 5:14 - Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. John 5:15 - The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. John 5:17 - But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. The third claim of divinity: John 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:52 - Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. John 8:53 - Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? John 8:54 - Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: John 8:55 - Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. John 8:56 - Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:57 - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:59 - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. I want to reference back to the Book of Exodus in the Torah so Christ's words are clearly understood..... Exodus 3:13 - And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:15 - And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Because God said his name I AM is his name forever, and is a memorial unto all generations, when Christ used that name for himself, the Jews immediately understood his claim. The fourth claim of divinity is found here: John 10:24 - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. John 10:25 - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. John 10:26 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:29 - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:30 - I and my Father are one. John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. As I stated before, you will not find a verse where Christ says "I am God", however there are references where his claims were clearly understood by those he spoke them to. And when his hour had come and he was delivered into the hands of the Jews, Christ claimed divinity again: Mark 14:60 - And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? Mark 14:61 - But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? Mark 14:62 - And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:63 - Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Mark 14:64 - Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death. This is also reported in Matthew 26:65 The Jews understood exactly what Jesus Christ claimed when he stated "Before Abraham was, I AM", "The son of man is Lord of the sabbath", "I and my Father are one" they however did not believe him, which is why they desired to kill him. As for the man who called Jesus good: Matthew 19:16 - And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matthew 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. For the explination, I will turn to tafseer of this verse from Biblical scholars John Gill and Matthew Henry. First Gill had this to say: Mat 19:17 - And he said unto him,.... By way of reply, first taking notice of, and questioning him about, the epithet he gave him: why callest thou me good? not that he denied that he was so; for he was good, both as God and man, in his divine and human natures; in all his offices, and the execution of them; he was goodness itself, and did good, and nothing else but good. But the reason of the question is, because this young man considered him only as a mere man, and gave him this character as such; and which, in comparison of God, the fountain of all goodness, agrees with no mere man: wherefore our Lord's view is, by his own language; and from his own words, to instruct him in the knowledge of his proper deity. Some copies read, "why dost thou ask me concerning good". And so the Vulgate Latin, and the Ethiopic versions, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel read; but the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions, read as we do, and this the answer of Christ requires. Matthew Henry: The encouragement that Jesus Christ gave to this address. It is not his manner to send any away without an answer, that come to him on such an errand, for nothing pleases him more, Mat_19:17. In his answer, (1.) He tenderly assists his faith; for, doubtless, he did not mean it for a reproof, when he said, Why callest thou me good? But he would seem to find that faith in what he said, when he called him good Master, which the gentleman perhaps was not conscious to himself of; he intended no more than to own and honour him as a good man, but Christ would lead him to own and honour him as a good God; for there is none good but one, that is God. Wel Mel I hope you can after studying what I presented, accept this proof as evidence of my truthfulness and conviction in having faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Shamms P.S. All underlinings are mine and have been added for emphasis.
03-29-2006, 11:23 PM
Bismillah: Salam Shamms. Quote:Peace.... im sorry but the verses does not show where Jesus say i am God? he only say that the son of man is 'Lord' which i do agree on using this term when refering to Jesus but Lord does not always mean God. Lord also means master or teacher and it is said that Sarah called her husband Abraham by this title in 1Peter 3:6 so this verse doesnt work with me. Quote:The second time Christ worked on the sabbath this happened: you see Shamms, this is the problem, none of these verses can be understood that Jesus is claiming divinity, it is totally ambiguous and can be interpreted in many ways. yes he can heal people by God's permission we agree, yes he can make people whole by God's permission we agree, yes the father work and jesus also work the same way that God have taught him we too agree. but people SAID that he is making himself equal with God is a lie because he never said that in the verses above but they always misunderstood his message, in fact his message was clear, he said 'i can do nothing of myself' john 8:28 to prove what? that he was God? he said 'my Father is greater than I" Jhon 14:28 again he is disclaiming that he is he the greatest because the greatest is the one who possess this quality and that is God alone the Creator of Jesus peace be upon him. Quote:The third claim of divinity: 'Before Abraham was I am' !!!! even if Jesus meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham was, is this sufficient ground to say that he was divine? if Jesus lived in heaven then came to earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish him as God incarnate. additionally it should be noted that these words are open to other interpretation. you do not imagine that the prophet Jeremiah had a prehuman existence but yet you will surely 'find a way' of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portray such a situation. so if this verse Jeremiah 1:5 taken literally then why not apply a similar understanding to John 8:58?? Quote:I want to reference back to the Book of Exodus in the Torah so Christ's words are clearly understood..... good point, but as you know the original of Exodus is in Hebrew while the original of John is in Greek, All but a few of Jesus' words were recorded in Greek, for 200 years before the time of Jesus the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew scriptures, the Septuagint. this work translated the key phrase "I AM" of Exodus as HO ON. but the words of Jesus "I AM" have been given to us in Greek as EGO EIMI. if the gospel writer of John 8:58 wanted to tell his Greek speaking audience that Jesus had imitated God he would have used the familiar words of the Septuagint, otherwise the point would be lost, so the evidence of John 8:58 far from conclusive. Quote:The fourth claim of divinity is found here: why did you stop here? you should continue to get better understanding. verse 34 says: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? now Jesus is actually quoting from the OLD TESTAMENT (THE LAW) Psalm 82:6 "I have said, YE ARE GODS: and all of you are the children of the most high. Jesus continues: verse 35 If he (God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came and the sctipture cannot be broken" in other words he is saying YOU CANNOT CONTRADICT ME, Jesus knows his scripture, he speaks with authority and he reason with his enemy that 'if good men, holy men, prophets of God, are being addressed as GODS in our books of authority then why do you take exception to me? in other words he is telling them that even if i (Jesus) described myself as 'god' in our language according to Hebrew usage you could find no fault with me. so again he is not claiming that he is God here because this word does not mean literally GOD THE CREATOR in the Hebrew language. by the way i was not giving any of my own interpretation it is just written in your Bible in plain English. A N D... before i forget, regarding the words "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE" the Greek word for "ONE" is HEN, i know of course that many Scholars have insisted that the only possible understanding of this word is "ONE IN ESSENCE OR NATURE". you dont need to be a Greek scholar to refute this unjustified claim because there is a counter example is sufficient enough in your SAME BIBLE.... the same word "ONE" is used by the same JESUS in John 17:11, 21,22,23 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be <b>one</b>, as we are. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be <b>one in us</b>: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. you see he included his disciples in this ONENESS. and as you know the desciples of Jesus were 12 persons, plus him and the father that is equal to 14 (FOURTEEN), are you telling me that those 14 persons are also ONE GOD??? No of course not what it means that they are all ONE IN PURPOSE, and that what Jesus meant in John 10:30. NO MAN PLUCK TJEM OUT OF MY HAND verse 28......... NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND verse 29.............. I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE verse 30... one in what? one in purpose and not in nature. Quote:As I stated before, you will not find a verse where Christ says "I am God", however there are references where his claims were clearly understood by those he spoke them to. simply because he is NOT GOD. if he was then he should not make people confuse, he should say it plainly but infact when someone addressed him as GOOD, he get upset and disclam his goodness. so i repeat again if he refused to be called good how will he accept to be called GOD? Quote:And when his hour had come and he was delivered into the hands of the Jews, Christ claimed divinity again: here he approved on the terms 'son of God' and not God and in the Hebrew language using this term son of God does not mean literally SON it mean servant of God and many people other than Jesus in the Bible were also called sons of God. Quote:The Jews understood exactly what Jesus Christ claimed when he stated "Before Abraham was, I AM", "The son of man is Lord of the sabbath", "I and my Father are one" they however did not believe him, which is why they desired to kill him. i have already explained this part. Quote:As for the man who called Jesus good: and this is exactly what i mean all verses that Christians claims to be refering to Jesus as God Almighty are either Insufficient , ambiguous or impossible, it could be giving lots of interpretations. so until now you have no shown me one single verse that can prove 100% that Jesus was God, in fact he was refering to GOD as HIS GOD. and if Jesus was God how can he call upon ANOTHER GOD ? it is impossible. i hope you didnt take this emotional please. im doing some Bible and other religious scriptures study so i love to express my point of view. Salam Wael. |
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