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Don Singleton · 03-26-2006, 11:55 PM

I am not a muslim, but I try to be respectful of all faiths. I do have a question, related to Abdul Rahman

Many have said that the Qu'ran requires that a Muslim that leaves the faith be killed, yet Surah 2:256, Surah 16:82, Surah 42:48, and Surah 88:21-22 seem to me to indicate that even the Prophet was only to tell people what Allah wanted; he was not to force them to believe. If the Prophet was not permitted to kill people that left the faith, what is there in the Qu'ran that authorizes, much less compels, others to do so.

Faris_Mee · 03-27-2006, 05:21 AM

Don, all those verses you have tendered relate to those outside the faith who are being called to the Religion of God. But if a believer at some point turns his back on God that's a different kettle of fish. That's high treason. Here's some verses that relate to the issue;

16.106 Anyone who is forced to deny faith after its acceptance, while his heart remains loyal to the faith shall be absolved; but any who denies faith willingly after its acceptance and open his breast to unbelief, shall incur the wrath of Allah and shall be sternly punished.

16.107 This is because such people love the life of this world more than the hereafter, and that Allah does not guide those who knowingly reject faith.

16.108 Such are those whose hearts, ears and eyes are sealed by Allah; and they are the ones who are heedless.

16.109 There is no doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.

The Prophet's Order;

Hadith Bukhari - Narrated by Ikrima

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of

this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not

have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody

with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement

of Allah's Messenger, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'.

The position is clear.

As for the west's position, they want to impose their religion of democracy over God's Law. And the bottom line is the west won't believe that they are fuel for the 'Fire of Hell'.

Don Singleton · 03-27-2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:Don, all those verses you have tendered relate to those outside the faith who are being called to the Religion of God. But if a believer at some point turns his back on God that's a different kettle of fish. That's high treason. Here's some verses that relate to the issue;
16.106 Anyone who is forced to deny faith after its acceptance, while his heart remains loyal to the faith shall be absolved; but any who denies faith willingly after its acceptance and open his breast to unbelief, shall incur the wrath of Allah and shall be sternly punished.

But that verse says that one who denies faith willingly and ceases to believe will incur the wrath of Allah. Is it not up to Allah to punish him, if He believes that is what happened?

And in the case of Abdul Rahman, he did not abandon his faith. He merely accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al KitâB) Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."

Quote:16.107 This is because such people love the life of this world more than the hereafter, and that Allah does not guide those who knowingly reject faith.

I agree with that. Do you not agree that He who you call Allah, is the same that I call God? Do we not both know Him and love Him, but just with different practices? Qur'an 2:136 says Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them. Do you not accept that statement from your Holy Book, and do you "make difference between one and another of them"?

Quote:16.108 Such are those whose hearts, ears and eyes are sealed by Allah; and they are the ones who are heedless.
16.109 There is no doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.

The Prophet's Order;

Hadith Bukhari - Narrated by Ikrima

Is this something that is in the Qu'ran (and if so where), or something outside of the Qu'ran? And if it is something outside of the Qu'ran, does it override the Word of Allah? Qur'an 3:3 says It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al KitâB) Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."

Quote:Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of
this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not

have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody

with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement

of Allah's Messenger, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'.

But he is not an atheist. He remains among the People of the Book. Qur'an 3:52 says When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

Quote:The position is clear.

Is it? I have quoted several items from your Holy Book which seem to say that we are all People of the (same) Book. Your Qu'ran may have been written in Arabic, as your Prophet understood what he was told by Allah, and our Holy Bible may have been written in Arameic, Ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Latin as God spoke to many prophets, but it was the same God that was doing the speaking.

Quote:As for the west's position, they want to impose their religion of democracy over God's Law. And the bottom line is the west won't believe that they are fuel for the 'Fire of Hell'.

We believe that Democracy is a better way of running a country than having a dictator controlling it, but id is not a religion. We feel that the individual should be free to select the faith he wishes to follow. Do you really think that Allah likes to have people worship him that do so out of fear that they will be killed if they do not?

And if Qur'an 3:64 is right, and if we are both People of the Book, and hence we are both believers in the same God/Allah, so if you kill a Christian (and especially if you kill another Muslim), Quran 4.93 says "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."

You also seem upset with us. Remember Qur'an 5:82 says "You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant."

AlShamms · (This post was last modified: 03-27-2006, 11:45 PM by AlShamms.)

a

AlShamms · 03-27-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:You also seem upset with us.

I knew I wasn't the only one who felt Feris' hostility... <_<

Faris_Mee · (This post was last modified: 03-28-2006, 03:29 AM by Faris_Mee.)

Hello Don,

The difference between the three sects is Jesus being GOD. The Jews are happy to sit back in silence and use you as cannon-fodder against us. We on the other hand are constantly screaming out to you, the Christians,

 'DANGER, DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, HELLFIRE APPROACHING!” 

...and at times we get a little zealous.

 But that verse (16.106) says that one who denies faith willingly and ceases to believe will incur the wrath of Allah. Is it not up to Allah to punish him, if He believes that is what happened?
 - Don Singleton

We are ordered to obey the prophet just like all the prophets beforehand;

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4.59

And as re-inforcement;

By the star when it set, your companion (Muhammad) is neither astray, nor misguided, nor does he speak out of his own desire. 53.1-3

 And in the case of Abdul Rahman, he did not abandon his faith. He merely accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al Kitâ Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."
 - Don Singleton

Abdul Rahman has indeed abandoned his faith (as have all the christians);

Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. 5.73

And again;

Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. 5.74

Do you not agree that He who you call Allah, is the same that I call God? Do we not both know Him and love Him, but just with different practices? Qur'an 2:136 says Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them.
- Don Singleton

But the christians have made a difference between Jesus and the rest of the prophets by saying he is Allah and the rest have been written up as pedophiles drunks sorcerers and adulterers to make Jesus look even more impressive. And Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all) they call a liar and Allah they say He is either a moon god or Satan himself.

Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. 5.73

And again;

Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. 5.74

 Do you not accept that statement from your Holy Book, and do you "make difference between one and another of them"?
 - Don Singleton

Of course we accept that statement. And no, we make make no difference between them. It's the Jews who say Jesus was not the Messiah and the christians who say the messiah is GOD - or part there of.

Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. 5.73

And again;

Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. 5.74

and I might I add you’re outnumbered two to one on this one about Jesus being God;

The Jews say: "The Christians are not on the right track," and the Christians say: "It is the Jews who are not on the right track," yet both read their Holy Books…2.113

Is this something (Prophets orders) that is in the Qu'ran (and if so where), or something outside of the Qu'ran? And if it is something outside of the Qu'ran, does it override the Word of Allah?
- Don Singleton

We’ve covered this before.

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. 4.59

 We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al Kitâ Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."
- Don Singleton

Gettin' a bit monotinous I realise, but hopefully the truth might sink in;

Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. 5.73

And again;

Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. 5.74

 But he (Abdul Rahman) is not an atheist. He remains among the People of the Book.
 - Don Singleton

Correct, he's not an atheist. But he is still an unbeliever as per above; 5.73-4

 Qur'an 3:52 says When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
- Don Singleton

The term "muslim" is from Ibraheem and means one who submits to the "Holy Unseen God of All". Truly, all the prophets since Adam have called to the same thing. This trinity stuff is a falsehood. And also the notion that Jesus is God Alone.

O People of the Book! Do not transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The Messiah, Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary) was no more than a Rasool of Allah and His Word "Be" which He bestowed on Maryam and a Spirit from Him which took the shape of a child in her womb. So believe in Allah and His Rasools and do not say: "Three". Stop saying that, it is better for you. Allah is only One Deity. He is far above from the need of having a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the Earth. Allah Alone is sufficient for protection. 4.171

 Your Qu'ran may have been written in Arabic, as your Prophet understood what he was told by Allah, and our Holy Bible may have been written in Arameic, Ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Latin as God spoke to many prophets, but it was the same God that was doing the speaking.
 - Don Singleton

Not so Don. The NT especially is a concoction of writings from various people, over one third from Paul himself and nearly all, apart from James, by Paul’s followers. Each and every book is signed e.g.;

This is the Gospel according to so and so. (30 to 100 yrs after the event).

This is an account by Luke, Paul’s friend.

This is me, Paul, addressing a particular group of people.

This is James addressing that stupid idiotic heretic (Paul)

…and so on.

The Qur’an on the otherhand is signed Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem – In the name of Allah Most Beneficent, Most Merciful, 114 times in The Qur’an. And in just about every paragraph it reads or implies something like “This is Me, God, speaking to you.” The entire book is an address from Allah to mankind. In no way is it like the NT. The Gospels wouldn’t be accepted as even ‘weak hadith’ in Islamic jurisprudence.

 We believe that Democracy is a better way of running a country than having a dictator controlling it, but it is not a religion.
- Don Singleton

In the NT, Paul explicitly orders that his followers are to turn away from The Mosaic Law and Paul also orders his followers to obey the Government of the Day whoever they are (because all govts are from God). Hence this is the religion of the Christians. You’re just not familiar with the NT.

 We feel that the individual should be free to select the faith he wishes to follow. Do you really think that Allah likes to have people worship him that do so out of fear that they will be killed if they do not?
- Don Singleton

Allah expects you to fear the One who will send you to the Hellfire;

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

 And if Qur'an 3:64 is right, and if we are both People of the Book, and hence we are both believers in the same God/Allah...


Once again so the point is re-enforced;

Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. 5.73

And again;

Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. 5.74

 so if you kill a Christian (and especially if you kill another Muslim), Quran 4.93 says "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."
 - Don Singleton

Sorry Don, this is irrelevant to the discussion. It’s another topic entirely about civil matters. And as you already got the 'gist', christians aren't counted believers.

 You also seem upset with us.
- Don Singleton

True.

 Remember Qur'an 5:82 says "You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant."


Don, it’s most unfortunate that the muslim translators have chosen to insert the word “Christians” into the translations of the Qur’an. It’s a definite mis-interpretation of the text.

Why? I don’t know.

The word in the Qur’an is Nasaaraa – “Helpers of Allah”. I’ll not go into detail in this thread because the story is;

A Too involved

B. Too ‘hard to believe’ to a Christian - unless he is seeking the truth.

There are two groups in the N.T.;

The Nasaaraa – ‘Helpers of Allah” and ‘Paul and his followers’’. The Christians you read about in the Quran are the Nasaaraa and not the Christians – 'Paul’s lot’.

Quote:"You also seem upset with us." - Don

I knew I wasn't the only one who felt Feris' hostility...

That’s Faris with an “A”, Shammie. :peace:

Don Singleton · 03-28-2006, 02:52 PM

First let me compliment you for seeking to carry on an intelligent question. You have made a number of points, but to somewhat they are saying the same thing over and over, so I will select just a few to respond to.

Quote:The difference between the three sects is Jesus being GOD.

I never said Jesus is GOD. Jesus never said that he was GOD. Jesus is the Son of God. God spoke through many prophets, both before and after Jesus, including your Prophet, and described different ways that one might achieve Salvation (including your Five Pillars).

But in the case of Jesus, God sent his only begotten son, to die on the cross, for all mankind, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are some that say that Jesus is the only way to achieve Salvation, based John 14:6 which says "I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." but God extended other plans of Salvation through other prophets, and I see nothing in what Jesus said to imply that he was invalidating any of those offers (especially offers made later, such as through your Prophet). And John 44:6 says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." which I interpret as saying that He (Jesus) will honor other arrangements His Father made to other people. In other words while I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, I believe that when I reach Heaven, I will see Jews there that have been faithful to the Laws of Moses, and I believe I will see Muslims there, that have faithfully followed the Five Pillars of Islam. I don't expect to see Muslims that have killed themselves in order to kill innocent men, women, and children, because Quran 4.93 says "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."

Quote:The Jews are happy to sit back in silence and use you as cannon-fodder against us. We on the other hand are constantly screaming out to you, the Christians,

So are you saying that Muslims happy embrace Jews as People of the Book, but just take issue with Christians? You guys have not liked Jews since God told Abraham to favor Isaac over Ishmael.

Quote: But that verse (16.106) says that one who denies faith willingly and ceases to believe will incur the wrath of Allah. Is it not up to Allah to punish him, if He believes that is what happened?
 - Don Singleton
We are ordered to obey the prophet just like all the prophets beforehand;

Quote: And in the case of Abdul Rahman, he did not abandon his faith. He merely accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al Kitâ Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."
 - Don Singleton
Abdul Rahman has indeed abandoned his faith (as have all the christians);

How have all the Christians abandoned their faith? They may not have embraced YOUR faith, but that does not mean they have abandoned their own faith. And as 3:64 quoted above says, we are all "People of the Book", so I dont see how Abdul Rahman has abandoned his faith; he has just changed to a different monotheistic faith within "The Book"

Quote:Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. 5.74

The concept of the Trinity is one Catholics are much more familiar with, and I do not feel qualified to explain it. I will say that I believe there is one God. The Jews may have one name (or several) for Him, I just call Him God, and you may call him Allah, but they are all the same being. And Jesus is his son.

Quote:Do you not agree that He who you call Allah, is the same that I call God? Do we not both know Him and love Him, but just with different practices? Qur'an 2:136 says Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them.
- Don Singleton
But the christians have made a difference between Jesus and the rest of the prophets by saying he is Allah and the rest have been written up as pedophiles drunks sorcerers and adulterers to make Jesus look even more impressive. And Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all) they call a liar and Allah they say He is either a moon god or Satan himself.

As I indicated above, I have never said that Jesus is Allah. He is the Son of Allah. There is only one Allah. And while the prophets were men, and therefore subject to the temptations that men face, I don't recall the verses of the Bible that says they were all pedophiles drunks sorcerers and adulterers, and I certainly don't recall any verse in the Bible that says that your Prophet (peace and blessings be upon them all) is a liar, a moon god, or Satan. I don't even recall it mentioning him. Can you give me a reference in the Holy Bible where he is so described.

I have skipped a number of repetitions of the same quotations, and some minor points we can address later, but we need to first agree on some basics.

(1) There is only one God. He may be called Jehovah, God, Allah, or any other name. He calls himself "I Am"

(2) Jesus is not God, and I don't know anyone who says he is. Perhaps Catholics do, in their concept of the Trinity, but I am not familiar enough with their beliefs to address that point.

I personally believe that Jesus is the Son of God, yet I recognize that both Jews and Muslims only accept him as Prophet. I respect their faiths, and I would hope that they would accept mine. I truly believe we are all People of the Book.

***Muslimah*** · 03-28-2006, 05:16 PM

Bismillah

salam everyone who is attending to this thread

And welcome to the board Don

Sorry if this is a late welcome, and i think i might have missed some heated discussions here.

Well to try and just focus on your point raised earlier or let us say the reason for u to start the thread.

In brief it will be an apostate punishment:

http://www.islamsms.com/bb//index.php?...topic=1560&st=0

And also read post #28 on this thread:

http://www.islamsms.com/bb//index.php?...opic=3220&st=20

As for the punishment promised by Allah to those who reject the faith, as u can clearly see from the Ayahs u yourself quoted, the punishment is in the hereafter. As for a Muslim to accept jesus as savior, this is totally against Islamic teachings, for no one and I stress no one can shoulder someone else's sins or be accountable before Allah on behalf of someone else. No not even Prophet Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.

Allah may He Glorified Say:

"And no bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden, and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin. You (O Muhammad) can warn only those who fear their Lord unseen, and perform the prayer. And he who purifies himself (from all kinds of sins), then he purifies only for the benefit of his ownself. And to Allah is the (final) Return (of all)." (Quran 35:18)

As for the hadeeth that my brother Faris posted, the situation had other dimensions.

Let me post the explanation as mentioned by and forgive me because this post will be somewhat long unlike my usual.

The explanation on the footnote of this hadeeth say:

According to the narration of Ibn Abi shayba that a group of people worshiped idols in secrecy, while Tabarani stated in his book Al Awsat according to the narration of Sued Ibn Ghafla that Ali was informed about a group of people who left Islam. He invited them in, offered them food and called them back to Islam. They refused. He dug a ditch, cut their necks and dumped them into the ditch. Then he covered them with straw and lit fire. After that, he said; Allah Say the truth so is His Messenger. Abu Almozafar Al Esfany claimed in his book:” Melal and Nahl:” The group of people whom Ali burnt were a sect of Rawafed (rejectful) who claimed Ali's divinity
. They are called as Saba-eya after their leader’s last name Abdullah Ibn Saba-a the Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and created this issue. The origin of this issue might go back to what we narrated in the 3rd part of the narration of Abi Taherl Mokhles after Abdullah Bin Shuraikl `amry after his father who said: Ali was informed that there are a group of people standing by the gate of the Masjed who claim that you are their lord. He invited them and said Woe unto you, what are you claiming? They replied: you are our lord, our creator and our sustainer. Woe unto you, I m not but a servant just like all of you who eats like you eat and drink like you drink. When I obey Allah, Allah Rewards me if Allah Wants to, and if I disobey I m afraid that Allah Shall punish me. Fear Allah and change your situation. They refused. Next day, Qonbur came telling him Wallahi they are repeating what they believed and said earlier. Ali said, let them in. They insisted on their position. On the third day, he warned them before hand saying if you insist on what you are claiming, I shall kill you using the worst type of killing. They insisted on their position. Ali instructed Qonbur saying dig a ditch between the gate of the Masjed and the palace and he further said dig deep enough. He then brought the straw and lit the fire in the ditch. He warned them saying either you reject what you are claiming or I m going to throw you in this fire. They insisted on their position. He then throw them into the fire till they burnt. He commented saying: When I see an evil, I jut lit a fire and call in Qobnur.

The footnote stresses that this is a good reporting.

As u may clearly see, Ali made this judgment after a thorough investigation of the matter, inviting them back, informing them that he is not but a servant of Allah. As u may also see that they didnt only change their religion but followed a Jew who was trying to pretend that he is a Muslim then changes back just exactly as Allah Say:

"The explanation on the footnote of this hadeeth say:

According to the narration of Ibn Abi shayba that a group of people worshiped idols in secrecy, while Tabarani stated in his book Al Awsat according to the narration of Sued Ibn Ghafla that Ali was informed about a group of people who left Islam. He invited them in, offered them food and called them back to Islam. They refused. He dug a ditch, cut their necks and dumped them into the ditch. Then he covered them with straw and lit fire. After that, he said; Allah Say the truth so is His Messenger. Abu Almozafar Al Esfany claimed in his book:” Melal and Nahl:” The group of people whom Ali burnt were a sect of Rawafed (rejectful) who claimed his divinity. They are called as Saba-eya after their leader’s last name Abdullah Ibn Saba-a the Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and created this issue. The origin of this issue might go back to what we narrated in the 3rd part of the narration of Abi Taherl Mokhles after Abdullah Bin Shuraikl `amry after his father who said: Ali was informed that there are a group of people standing by the gate of the Masjed who claim that you are their lord. He invited them and said Woe unto you, what are you claiming? They replied: you are our lord, our creator and our sustainer. Woe unto you, I m not but a servant just like all of you who eats like you eat and drink like you drink. When I obey Allah, Allah Rewards me if Allah Wants to, and if I disobey I m afraid that Allah Shall punish me. Fear Allah and change your situation. They refused. Next day, Qonbur came telling him Wallahi they are repeating what they believed and said earlier. Ali said, let them in. They insisted on their position. On the third day, he warned them before hand saying if you insist on what you are claiming, I shall kill you using the worst type of killing. They insisted on their position. Ali instructed Qonbur saying dig a ditch between the gate of the Masjed and the palace and he further said dig deep enough. He then brought the straw and lit the fire in the ditch. He warned them saying either you reject what you are claiming or I m going to throw you in this fire. They insisted on their position. He then throw them into the fire till they burnt. He commented saying: When I see an evil, I jut lit a fire and call in Qobnur.

The footnote stresses that this is a good reporting.

It still has another part that explains that both women and men are equal in applying the punishment of killing in case of apostacy. The Hanafi school also explains that the hadeeth say one who changes the religion but that does not include one who changes from a kufr religion to another kufr." (Quran 3;72)

As u see the Ayah is warning us from those who pretend to be Muslims then reject it in order for others to follow them.

In such case the punishment has to be really harsh to deter those who think this way.

i m sure if u do brows the threads I gave u u will learn a lot about the matter. It will be a long read, but if u did ask to learn, it is then worth readin.

enjoy Don :)

Don Singleton · 03-28-2006, 08:56 PM

Quote:As for the punishment promised by Allah to those who reject the faith, as u can clearly see from the Ayahs u yourself quoted, the punishment is in the hereafter.

It is only right that punishment promised by Allah be in the hereafter. As you have indicated, a person may repent later in life. But if you, a mere human, tell him he must repent now, or you will kill him, you are either forcing him to pretend to repent (which may satisfy you, but surely Allah will know it is only a false repentence), or you will kill him, and thereby deny him the ability to truly repent in his own time

Quote:As for a Muslim to accept jesus as savior, this is totally against Islamic teachings,

I will assure you that the Christian faith does not teach that one should embrace Judiasm or Islam, yet many do, and we don't kill them if they do. And I strongly suspect that Jewish teaching does not encourage or even condone a Jew becoming a Christian or a Muslim, but I have never heard of them killing someone for doing so.

What happens to them in the hereafter is up to God.

Quote:for no one and I stress no one can shoulder someone else's sins or be accountable before Allah on behalf of someone else. No not even Prophet Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.

I understand that not even your Prophet could shoulder someone else's sins or be accountable before Allah on behalf of someone else, but he, just like you and me, was a human. Jesus was the Son of God, and as such was without sin, and as John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Would you deny that Allah could send his Son to earth? Would you deny that if he did, and if that Son allowed himself to be killed to redeam the sins of everyone that accepted him as their Saviour, that when such a person stood before Allah at Judgement Day, and the Son of Allah spoke up and said I died so that this man might have eternal life, that Allah would not honor the wishes of His Son?

Quote:Allah may He Glorified Say:"And no bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden, and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin

I believe that means that I cannot accept your burden, nor can you accept mine. I don't think it applies to the Son of Allah

To avoid making this post unwieldy I will postpone a discussion of the hadeeth until we determine what the Quran says and does not say, and what it means and does not mean, and whether or not God (Allah) can send his Son to earth.

AlShamms · (This post was last modified: 03-28-2006, 09:42 PM by AlShamms.)

Quote:To avoid making this post unwieldy I will postpone a discussion of the hadeeth until we determine what the Quran says and does not say, and what it means and does not mean, and whether or not God (Allah) can send his Son to earth.[/b]

Peace....

Don, there will be no agreement on that last point, because muslims don't believe, and Islam does not teach, that Jesus was the son of God. Qur'an teaches and muslims believe, he was just a human, a prophet like Isaiah or Jeremiah, but human nontheless. The Qur'an teaches that Jesus was not the only begotten son of God, but that Allah begets not. The Qur'an also teaches that Christ was not crucified but only made to appear so. Remember what Christ himself taught:

Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And also:

John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 - Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2:21 - But he spake of the temple of his body.

John 2:22 - When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Paul in his letter to the believers at Corinth had this to say:

1st Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1st Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1st Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1st Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1st Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1st Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1st Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1st Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

If Jesus Christ was never crucified as the Qur'an teaches, then Christ was not raised. These are two very different messages from two very different sources. How can you believe they come from the same God? Muslims claim they believe in Jesus, but it is not the Jesus of the Bible, it is the Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an, which according to both accounts, are two very different men. So there won't be an agreement on that point.

And Faris, thanks for the correction on the name.. I won't forget ;)

Shamms

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