The Mercy of Islam

[Faris_Mee]

Just a quick note on Islam and common comments made by christians about their faith.


A day or 2 ago someone joined the forum and proceeded to post vile pornographic material in the site.


A comment was made "he/she is not a christian". This is a common response by those defending their faith.


All Praise and thanks to Allah that our religion is one of mercy. If a muslim were to do something like that it would be a sin but not grounds for expulsion from the religion. Even if he were to slay a million people it would not expell him from the mercy of Allah. He would probably be in big trouble, but he's still muslim. Only Allah can judge.


In fact if we are to ever call a muslim a kafir (non-believer) on the day of Judgement that "hat" will sit on someone's head. If the brother we call a "kafir" turns out to be true - o.k. But if it be untrue then we will be labelled the kafir (unbeliever). Scary stuff.


Didn't Jesus warned the 'followers of the way' that if they call their brother a fool they themselves are in danger of the fire of hell?


This is the grounds for expulsion from Allah's mercy -


<b><i>Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him - e.g. Jesus); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie. 4.48</i></b>

[AlShamms]

Just a quick note on Islam and common comments made by christians about their faith.


A day or 2 ago someone joined the forum and proceeded to post vile pornographic material in the site.


A comment was made "he/she is not a christian". This is a common response by those defending their faith.

Peace.....


Since I am the one who made the above comment, I thought it best that I reply. While sitting here thinging about what exactly to say and how best to express it so that thoughts are clearly exchanged, it occured to me that these are the major issues between people of differing faiths. People assuming they know about a particular faith without actually taking the time to study from someone who practices it. AND those who constantly feel the need to compare their faith with others.


There are christians who sin, and there are people who, according to their actions, mark them as not being Christians. The Bible teaches us:


Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


Romans 16:18 - For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


And we are futher taught:


1st John 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


1st John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

All Praise and thanks to Allah that our religion is one of mercy. If a muslim were to do something like that it would be a sin but not grounds for expulsion from the religion. Even if he were to slay a million people it would not expell him from the mercy of Allah. He would probably be in big trouble, but he's still muslim. Only Allah can judge.

Faris, on this I agree with you, only God can judge, and his judgement was already clearly laid out in the Bible. It is that standard the Christian uses to measure the actions of a person. Am I ridged in my stance? Yes. Does it not leave room for forgivness? Not at all:


Galatians 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

In fact if we are to ever call a muslim a kafir (non-believer) on the day of Judgement that "hat" will sit on someone's head. If the brother we call a "kafir" turns out to be true - o.k. But if it be untrue then we will be labelled the kafir (unbeliever). Scary stuff.

Alright, I'll conceed this point and say it would have been better expressed if I stated his actions are not the actions of a believing Christian.

Didn't Jesus warned the 'followers of the way' that if they call their brother a fool they themselves are in danger of the fire of hell?

No Faris, what was actually stated was:


Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:



Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to



his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;



Matthew 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.



The context of the instuction was being angry with your brother without cause and asking God to forgive your sins when you haven't sought forgivness from your brother. That is why it is always important to place verses in their proper context so that the proper understanding is received.

This is the grounds for expulsion from Allah's mercy -


<b><i>Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him - e.g. Jesus); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie. 4.48</i></b>

There's much I could say about the above verse, but I'll keep it simple in saying, Christians don't associate partners with God, Jesus Christ is God:


1st Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Jesus himself taught:


John 14:5 - Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



John 14:7 - If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.



John 14:8 - Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.



John 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?



Shamms

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam Shamms


This is the major problem here, u think that by saying so u r not associating anyone with God whereas this is exactly what it is all about.


shamms God does not need to incarnate in the flesh to have his own creation believe in him, be freed of their own sins, or or or whatever reasons given to u. I dont blame u and I cannt really ask u to abandon these concepts. U r grown up with them.


But sorry to tell u this foundation is totally wrong. That is where we certainly differ.Allah Is One and be saying God incarnated, u r calling God as Jesus. Jesus is not God.

Peace.....


There's much I could say about the above verse, but I'll keep it simple in saying, Christians don't associate partners with God, Jesus Christ is God:


Shamms

[AlShamms]

Peace.....


You're right that is the major problem. You believe I'm wrong, and I have faith I'm right..... -_-


But you presume to know me when you say I grew up with these beliefs.....I didn't.


Imma end it here.


Shamms

[Faris_Mee]

Peace.....


You're right that is the major problem. You believe I'm wrong, and I have faith I'm right..... -_-


But you presume to know me when you say I grew up with these beliefs.....I didn't.


Imma end it here.


Shamms

Your nik indicates you (like me) grew up in a christian orientated culture. Whether you acknowledge it or not our beliefs are shaped by our environment.


Alhamdulillah, my mind was always turned towards seeking the God of Ibrahim and Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all).


I never thought of JC as God. He always spoke about 'The Holy Unseen God of Israel' as his God too. At least that's how i always read it.


When the time in my life came for answers and thoughts of submission and repentance started to creep into my head, I heeded this and my long winding journey to Islam commenced;


<i>"But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him. "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one."</i>


Over and over again i prayed and i vowed. Show me you're real and i'll obey. He did and I'm trying...real hard...'til my last breath ....God willing.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Faris


Mash aAllah I never thought u r a revert, may Allah Keeps u on the correct path and Makes your affairs easy.

Your nik indicates you (like me) grew up in a christian orientated culture. Whether you acknowledge it or not our beliefs are shaped by our environment.


Over and over again i prayed and i vowed. Show me you're real and i'll obey. He did and I'm trying...real hard...'til my last breath ....God willing.

Shamms it is not that I assumed i know u, it was just a way of saying that these beliefs are well established within yourself. BUt just as Faris posted this verse of the bible, I dont claim myself to be well versed in the Bible like my other revert brothers and sisters or even wel_mel, but I did come accross many of them that prove Jesus is not God.

[AlShamms]

Peace.....


Where to begin?


As I stated before, my reason for being here is to present a view of the christian faith from someone who actually practices it. Since being here, I've seen alot of misunderstanding about what christians believe. From not understanding how a claim of sonship is a claim of divinity, to not understanding the concept of sinful man and the need for a savior. I've even seen it mentioned that many christians cannot explain trinity (that is a meaty subject).


Muslimah, you mentioned that you've seen verses that proved to you Jesus Christ was not God, I'd like to see them. Often times when speaking to non-christians (and even some christian cults), what they view as "proof" turns out to be simply their misunderstanding of scripture. For some, they wanna see the exact verse where Jesus Christ states "I am God". Well that verse does not exist. There are however many verses where Christ calls himself the Son of God, where he is worshiped, Where YHVH calls him "God", and so on.


During my time here, I try my best to be respectful of the differing beliefs and make sure to never claim muslims are wrong in their belief because according to them, they are right, and I'm the one who's wrong. Wrong because the Qur'an says christians are wrong in their belief. Christians believe all non-chrisitans are wrong because of their denial of the divinity of Christ and his message of salvation, which to those who believe, is clearly laid out in the Bible. So here we are, me on my side of the fence, the muslim on theirs, both clinging to the teachings they believe are from God, both unyielding in their belief, and both believing they know enough about the other to use the other's teachings against them. Many times I've seen when a non-muslim quotes the Qur'an the muslim responds "You have to read it in arabic to get the proper understanding". Often times when I see muslims quote the Bible they clearly (to me) take verses out of context and try to gather a proper meaning from that.


Faris, you stated that our beliefs are shaped by our enviornment...I can agree with that. However there comes a time in a man's life when he shakes off his enviornment and seeks out truth for himself...just like you did. I am not a chrisitan because I grew up in a christian household, nor am I a chrisitan because that's all I know. I am a christian because I, like you Faris, prayed to be rightly guided, and have faith that God answered my prayers.


As I said in the beginning of this post, I have tried to present the chrisitan faith from the viewpoint of someone who practices it. If their have been any mistakes in my presentation, they have been mine, and mine alone. What I believe the problem is, people already think they know what they need to know to make a decision, which by the things I've seen posted here, is not the case. I've said all this to say, while I have enjoyed the challenge of "representing" my faith and the exchange of ideas and opinions.....I think I'm going to end my participation on this message board. Reason being, I've never come out and stated "the foundation your religion is built on is all wrong" and while that might seem like a small thing to some, it was a big thing to me. Beacuse I have never openly disrespected any muslim here in such a way. Sure, we could go back and forth, picking out those things from the other's religion that seems strange to us but as I said, that is not my aim for being here. So before it gets to that, I'll stop posting. I might post from time to time if I feel the topic important enough, but I will end the daily checking and posting.


Shamms.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Peace AlShamms


I agree with you on the point that sometimes people do seem to give the impression that they know more than they truly know about other faiths. As a Muslimah and participating in different forums with non Muslims that is very clear to me. And when people are willing to listen and learn it is well enough. But most are just out to spread whatever interpretation they have and hold steadfast onto it. That is of course very sad. It is difficult to come to an 'understanding' that way.


Anyway it has been nice to read your posts, since your tone is very polite, I am not that used to it, so it is refreshing. I do hope you will continue to contribute on the board.


Just a short comment to what you wrote,

There are however many verses where Christ calls himself the Son of God, where he is worshiped, Where YHVH calls him "God", and so on.

I think the subject of 'son of God' is one of the problems Muslims may have and feel for this phrase. Since when just looking at the words is so very much against the Islamic belief. Surah 112 in the Qur'an says;


<i>''Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; </i>


Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;


<b>He begetteth not</b>, nor is He begotten;


And there is none like unto Him. ''


So when hearing 'son of God' surely every Muslim will think 'oh no!', very likely, don't you agree?


But then if looking into the matter a bit more, from at Christian point of view, Christians do not either believe Jesus pbuh is conceived in a human way, but in a spiritual way. And Muslims agree on that he is 'conceived' by the word of Him, just by Him saying 'Be!'. THAT is 'the word' in the Islamic teachings. Our believes here are maybe a bit closer than at the first look into it. At least when it comes to this particular part.


The part of worshipping, I think it shold not be taken literally, my opinion, since worshipping is like paying respect, in the manner we do it to our parents, elderly people, as a Christian I think you call your priest 'father' from time to time. So the word 'worship' in the Bible and adding to that the customs of its writings and looking what kind of language was used at that time it can give another picture also, than at the first sight.


Where does God call Jesus pbuh him God? Can you give me the Bibleverse?

[AlShamms]

Peace.....


ummZachariah, those verses, both where Christ is worshiped and where he is called God by God, can be found in the book of Hebrews chapter one. To understand the context of the verses, I suggest you read a King James translation as it is the best word for word translation available and begin at verse one and read down to verse eight. I will reproduce them here, and you can study them on your own.


Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.


Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


Shams, if you dont mind, who is talking in those verses please ?


salam


wael