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:-) Mohsie, no problem. I am far beyond the point where I take offense on anything someone says. (Such is the life of a heretic - a person who sees first what others cannot see.)
Gold and silver are just colored dirt. Why should it hold such value in our minds? Trade is about how we treat one another. It is based on relationships, not product. The economic theory of Marx and Smith describe how products move, and what determines price, etc. But "price" is a fiction based on the fiction that gold (colored dirt) has special value more than how we value each other. Secondarily, inflation makes the idea of price (and product) even more meaningless, since we are responding to the marketplace idea, and not to one another.
I call the American dollar 'green paper fascists.' Why? Because it is green paper with pictures of fascists on it. Why do we accept one piece of green paper as "real" and not another piece of green paper? The whole think is absurd. People kill people to rob them of their green paper. They allow people to starve or die from illness if they don't have green paper. People feel "safe" if they have green paper.
Money is an intellectual agreement. If we don't "think" about what we are doing with it, then conflict and misery is inevitable.
It is no surprise that God told us how to treat one another, but he also told us how we should treat money, too. We are not doing too good on either count, regardless of ones religion.
In the battle between God and the Devil, the best place for the Devil to get an advantage is in faith communitiies, which is why all religions seem to make exceptions for the commandments. Some build idols, others profit and take interest, some kill, others covet, etc. Of course, all these choices are made by individuals, not by the group.
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03-10-2006, 03:31 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2006, 03:32 AM by naseeha.)
Bismillah...
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah...
Steve, Mohsie... this is going to be a bit long.... please bear with me.
I am very late to this thread and have just quickly browsed through it without going to the referenced url's.
I see that the thread started asking the question of whether or not there exists an islamic economy, then progressed to dealing with the distinction between riba and profit. and now we are at the discussion of price as explained by Marx and Adam Smith.
Wooow we are really jumping aren't we.
Anyway. to proceed.
Let's start at the beginning. As far as an islamic economy is concerned. I dont know of such a thing in today's world. if anyone can produce one with ample evidence then i am more than willing to listen.
As far as the distinction between trade and profit is concerned, this difference is VITAL in the fight against riba than anyone else. In fact there are still many differences among muslims with regards to this distinction. However, Steve, I must say that i find your confusion between profit and trade a bit perplexing myself. Profit is the product of trade, simply put. Mohsie has gone in detail with explaining that. So i don't understand where you were coming from when you explained that. Maybe you can expound.
As far as money, price and inflation is concerned, we have gone through these economic theories by Marx and Adam Smith and the answer lies in the basics of economics. DEMAND and SUPPLY
I can empathise with Mohsie's statement on the gold and silver. We cannot attempt to discredit it's value because it's "coloured dirt" because it's value is not determined by WHAT it is. the reason gold has an intrinsic value, is that, Alot of people want it (high demand) and it's rare (little supply) i wont go into detail with that because you both seem to have a good grasp on economic theories. It has been this way for centuries. HIGH DEMAND LOW SUPPLY thus the <b>gold itself has a value</b> and this value is contained within the commodity itself. because of the nature of this demand and supply. Thus at any point in history, gold has carried it's own weight and could have been considered valuable.
Money doesn't really have that demand and supply factored into it in the <b>same context as the gold</b> even though money is desired, if someone demands it they cannot purchase it as they would purchase a commodity. Money is used to obtain these commodities that carry an intrinsic value. The only time money is treated as a commodity is when we ask for loans, in that case we apply riba as it's price. Because money doesnt carry an intrinsic value, the next logical question is, "why is it valuable?" the value of money is determined by the demand and supply of these very commoditis of which we speak.
for instance: If their is an excess of tomatoes on the market, and the price falls, i can purchase two tomatos for $1 as opposed to before when i could only get one tomatoe for $1. We can see that the value of tomatoes decreased. But conversely, the value of the dollar has increased. One dollar is now worth, 2 tomatoes. Get it.
It is because of these effects that the price mechanism turns it's wheels.
The issue of inflation however, is a question of macro economics as opposed to the micro level we were on. But at this point it's relevance is relatively small.
What i wanted to get back to is the issue of profit.
As far as riba is concerned. The ulama, some of whom i have seen in the url in the last post, and whom my organisation deals intricately with.
They have designed financing facilities that deals on a trade basis, as well as equity sharing basis, and in one case, a contract pricing basis, for muslims to gain the commoditis that they want without actually borrowing money. These things are out there and are practised worldwide as financing facilites for muslims. They allow us to gain financing islamically, in spite of the riba based economy that surrounds it.
Notice I used the word Financing facility as opposed to loan.
As for the Islamic loan system, i have not totally explored it but i am a bit skeptical. They argue that
INTEREST IS NOT TOTALLY RIBA.... INTEREST CONTAINS RIBA.
With this logic it allows you to borrow a principal, repay extra, and not be involved in interest... Sounds funny eh?
let's put it like this. if i were to leave my country to lend you $100. and in order to do so, i incur a cost of $20 for a plane ticket, then shouldnt you be re-imbursing me for that ticket, therefore you must repay me for that ticket. It follows therefore that when you borrow $100 from me you will in fact be repaying $120. In other words, i must recover any overheads incurred.
further more, because of the rate of inflation, and the fact that money does not have an inrinsic value, a dollar today is not worth a dollar in a years time: QUESITON: should the lender not be repaid for the VALUE of which he lent. therefore, if $500 will be worth $505 in a years time. Should the lender not be repaid for that extra amount.
these are just some of the issues, but as i said i am a bit skeptical of them.
I will be leaving now, I am not in the habit of writing long posts... so PLEASE forgive me for this but ribaa is a VERY serious issue and it must be dealt with.
As salaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.
Naseeha
