Child Molestation

[Universist]

Does Islam declare a position regarding child molestation? What does Islamic Law do to define child molestation. How is it defined. And once defined what are the penalties.


For instance. If a man over the age of 18 has forced sexual relations with a girl under the age of 18 the man made laws of this country define that as "stautory rape" and that man is then given a trial and placed in jail when the allegations are proven against him.


What does Islam say about this?


Is is ok for a Man over the age of 18 to have sex with a girl under the age of say 15?


Universist

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Universist


You are bit unclear here, first you give an example of man made laws for rape, and then you ask if a man that is 18 can have sex with a girl under 15?


Are these two questions connected somehow? I don't quite understand HOW.


If a young man is MARRIED to a young woman they can have sex TOGETHER, yes, but not with anyone else that they are not married to. But if they are unmarried they cannot have sex with each other or anyone else either, before they marry.


It is not that common to marry early, I think, not today anyway, but if you have reached puberty and you are mature enough to do it, then it is possible. I think this was more common in earlier days, even others than Muslims did practice this. Maybe they came to be more responsible at an earlier age and grow up faster, faster than today?

[Universist]

Bismillah
Universist


You are bit unclear here, first you give an example of man made laws for rape, and then you ask if a man that is 18 can have sex with a girl under 15?


Are these two questions connected somehow? I don't quite understand HOW.

I am asking if under Islamic Law if man over the age of 18 has relations with girl under the age of 18, if that is considered child molestation?


I give no clarity regarding legal status.

If a young man is MARRIED to a young woman they can have sex TOGETHER, yes, but not with anyone else that they are not married to. But if they are unmarried they cannot have sex with each other or anyone else either, before they marry.


It is not that common to marry early, I think, not today anyway, but if you have reached puberty and you are mature enough to do it, then it is possible.

Are you saying that the definition of maturity is based on reaching puberty?


Is this an Islamic definition of maturity in the human species?

I think this was more common in earlier days, even others than Muslims did practice this. Maybe they came to be more responsible at an earlier age and grow up faster, faster than today?

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You confuse me.


First you convey puberty as a defining moment of female maturity, then you indicate the measure of adulthood is found in "being responsible".


Which is it? Does a female become mature upon reaching puberty, or by demonstrating responsibility?


One is a biological state of being, and the other a learned behaviour.


I am not sure how you would use either condition in defining what constitutes child abuse by an adult. It seems clear cut to me that there is such a thing as being a child and being an adult, and that sexual contact between the two is abhorent.


Let me rephrase my question. Do you consider sexual relations between a man over the age of 18 and a child under the age of 13 child abuse or molestation?


Assume that they are married under Islamic Law, because in western civilization such marriages are not allowed at all.


Universist

[Faris_Mee]

That's one highly moralistic quote dude...

Assume that they are married under Islamic Law, because in western civilization such marriages are not allowed at all.

Perhaps you could clarify by advising what is the percentage of virgins over the age of 13 in the west?

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Universist


First you wrote:

If a man over the age of 18 has forced sexual relations
with a girl under the age of 18 the man made laws of this country define that as "stautory rape

Then you wrote:

I am asking if under Islamic Law if man over the age of 18 has relations with girl
under the age of 18, if that is considered child molestation?

Now THIS is confusing, do you truly know WHAT it is you are asking? The first is forced and the second not. Isn't this TWO different questions?


If you have reached puberty you can also have a child and you can also marry. Not many do, but tecnically you can, yes. And therefore the individual self has to conclude if they are able or not to take such a big commitment.

First you convey puberty as a defining moment of female maturity, then you indicate the measure of adulthood is found in "being responsible".
Which is it? Does a female become mature upon reaching puberty, or by demonstrating responsibility?


One is a biological state of being, and the other a learned behaviour.

NOT only female reaches puberty also men for that matter so it goes for both. Responsibility I am sure you think here in a 'Western way', there children do begin to take responsible and therefore mature at an older age than in for example many Muslim countries. Taking responsibility means among other things to help out, which most children do from a very young age in Muslim families, while in the West they do not do it. We are different in this way, I have lived in both these worlds, so I do know it differs. So learing behaviour comes from taking responsibility and it is started much earlier among Muslims.

Let me rephrase my question. Do you consider sexual relations between a man over the age of 18 and a child under the age of 13 child abuse or molestation?

You rephrased it rather a lot since you suddenly CHANGED the age. Why? So which should I consider now, 15 or 13?

Assume that they are married under Islamic Law, because in western civilization such marriages are not allowed at all.

I understand such MARRIGES are not allowed in West but such sexual relations OUTSIDE marriage do occur. Are all being judged and sentenced? In Sweden one side of this 'would be no problem' since having sex without being married is not problem whatsoever, no one will care. Then when it comes to ages, it may differ, but that on the other hand would mean that you will not have the right to have sex at all until you are 18, married or not. NOW this is truly a 'lawbreaker' situation in at least the Swedish society, that is for sure. The problem is when you have to 'wait out to a responsibility age' which is 18 when you in reality may become it earlier. The state decides when you are mature, not the INDIVIDUAL self. THAT is strange to me.

[Universist]

You rephrased it rather a lot since you suddenly CHANGED the age. Why? So which should I consider now, 15 or 13?

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I rephrased it to make a point. When exactly do you think there should be a legal cutoff? You dance on the head of a pin. Whether sexual relations occur at this age or do not occur at this age is not of import as we all know that it is happening and its terrible. A child is a child. And 13 years of age is not an adult in any modern sense including your world.


This is a question of legality.


Here is why. In your world if a man wants four wives and likes them young thats acceptable. Its not seen as child abuse, legally speaking.


Here it is. And you can bet that when its discovered that a child of 13 has sex with a man of 18+ that man will be charged with crime and prosecuted.


Your laws would allow this same man to use a shield of marriage to carry out acts of child abuse.

If you have reached puberty you can also have a child and you can also marry. Not many do, but tecnically you can, yes. And therefore the individual self has to conclude if they are able or not to take such a big commitment.

Who are you kidding. There are thousands of true accounts of women forced in to arranged marriages at the age of puberty who too terrified to say or do anything about it. Islam makes second class citizens of its women and any who would raise a voice would surely be "beat lightly" for doing so. Or murdered outright, which is also the truth. Its not about individual choice for these childern. You and I both know what I say has happened and is true. Just check out Amnesty International and Iran or Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Sudan to see if there is truth in my words. Amnesty International tells no lies.


Children of 13 years of age may experience puberty. And they may also be good at taking out the trash, cleaning bed rooms, or milking a goat. But they are not mentally ready to be cast into an arranged marriage and forced to have sex just because your laws don't protect them.


Are you really going to take the position that every girl who has attained puberty and is ready to breed is wide open for any muslim male who can get the father to arrange the marriage?


Universist

[Universist]

That's one highly moralistic quote dude...
Perhaps you could clarify by advising what is the percentage of virgins over the age of 13 in the west?

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Not at all. No morality is involved here. Its simply a legal question. Regarding your point about virgins I stipulate to it that there are children who have on thier own accord had sex before marriage. And that is a moral issue.


But the question I raise here is not about children making moral choices. Its about a legal system condoning child abuse. A completely different issue.


Its very simple. Here if your over 18 and you have sex with a minor (under 18) the LAW OF THE LAND says your guilty of statutory rape. Marriage is not a consideration as your not allowed to marry if your not of the age of majority. And here Parents do not OWN thier children like you own a cow. Your not allowed to arrange forced marriages between adults and children.


So it comes down to a simple legal construct. Do you enact a law meant to protect the majority of children from abuse. Or do you follow an archaic system of law which not only condones child abuse, but polygamy as well.


Universist

[Universist]

Maybe you should spend some time reading about the child abuse of forced muslim marriages and see that there are many women who have suffered horrible abuse under your system of laws.


http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,370415,00.html


Best Selling Books Tell the Horrors of Forced Marriage


Stories of the suffering of young Muslim women forced into marriage are best sellers in Germany.


Or this


http://www.muslimmatrimonial.com/muslim-ma...-marriage.shtml


A point blank assessment of the legal aspects of the muslim system of law regarding marriage.


Or this


http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/uproot.htm


Uproot forced marriages or face the consequences, Siddiqui warns Muslim community


Dr. Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, leader of the Muslim Parliament, has said that the Muslim community should make a concerted effort to put an end once and for all to the obnoxious practice of forced marriages. It is destroying the life of our young people, jeopardising their happiness and signalling the death knell to their dreams. Dr. Siddiqui was commenting on Ann Cryer MP’s campaign to ban forced marriages. Dr. Siddiqui said, forced marriage is linked to abduction, domestic violence and murder in the name of honour which are tarnishing the good image of Muslims in the society and bringing disrepute on their religion. Up to 70 per cent of forced marriages end up in divorce thereby disintegrating the community. He said, if the community did not set its own house in order it is not inconceivable that forced marriage would became a criminal offence. This would make coercing someone into or abetting a forced marriage a crime. In such an event the parents who do it and the Imams who endorse it will be liable to criminal prosecution.


30 March 2004


Or this


1 Afghanistan: Women still under attack - a systematic failure to protect - Amnesty International


Last modified: 30 May 2005


This report highlights the failure of the Afghan state to respect, protect and fulfil the rights of women and girls. It is not a comprehensive study of violations and abuses perpetrated against wo...


URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engas...open&of=eng-373


2 Afghanistan: "No-one listens to us and no-one treats us as human beings". Justice denied to women. - Amnesty International


Last modified: 6 October 2003


The rights and status of women in Afghanistan became an issue of global concern prior to the military intervention by a United States-led coalition that brought about the end of the Taleban regime...


URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA110232003


3 Uganda: "Breaking God's commands": The destruction of childhood by the Lord's Resistance Army - Amnesty International


Last modified: 18 September 1997


This report features cases of individual women who have suffered violence at the hands of their family. It outlines a pattern of abuse and discrimination which can start from birth when families b...


URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR440132004


5 Pakistan: Insufficient protection of women - Amnesty International


Last modified: 17 April 2002


This report summarizes Pakistan's official commitments to uphold women's rights made since October 1999 and describes instances of abuse of women's rights in the family, in the community and in cu...


URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA330062002


6 Pakistan: The Tribal Justice System. - Amnesty International


Last modified: 1 August 2002


Interventions of tribal councils or jirgas affecting the lives and rights of men and women in Pakistan are not rare and the state's acquiescence or complicity in such practices has frequently been...


URL: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR320012002


9 Pakistan: Violence against women: Media briefing - Amnesty International


Last modified: 17 April 2002


Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.


There are over 100+ other articles I can send you too if your interested in the truth about how the muslim laws allow women to be abused easily and hundreds of horrifying ways. This is going on and your ignoring it. Your defending it. You seem to think that there is nothing wrong with forced marriage between adults and children.


Universist

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace Universist


You asked a direct and simple question. How does Islam see child molestation and u even precisly asked if an 18 year old man has sex with a 15 or less year old girl.


1. If both are married, this is Halal (i know you are familiar with such terms).


2. If both are not married, both did that willingly this is zina and punishment (under and Islamic rule) must be applied which would be 80 lashes each.


3. If one is married and the other is not and both also did that willingly, then it is also zina and punishment applies. The married party shall be stoned to death and the unmarried 80 lashes.


4. If the man forced himself on the girl, this is considered rape and under Islamic ruling, a Ta`zeer punishment must be applied. I think (not sure) the ayah of :


"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter" (Quran 5:33)


No need for your to go thru posting such numerous links.


Besides actually what Faris_ me posted is very relevant.


As u clearly admitted on another thread, children start having sex in the West as early as 12 and 13.


so Alhamdulelah, dont worry Universist about us Muslim women. Even if we suffer issues, Muslims Alhamdulelah have the ability to solve them. We dont need any western intervention. just worry about yourself and your life. Hope this is clear.


May be this tone and attitude makes the anti American sentiments grow high in the Middle East. Just think about this comment a bit deep before u jump trying to reply.

[Universist]

Bismillah
Peace Universist


You asked a direct and simple question. How does Islam see child molestation and u even precisly asked if an 18 year old man has sex with a 15 or less year old girl.


1. If both are married, this is Halal (i know you are familiar with such terms).

Lets focus only on this one rule. This is the one that is trouble. Lets clarify this completely. All further questions that I ask will be solely focused on this rule.


So to clarify with a question.


If a man of ANY AGE over 18 is married to a child under 13 then itis Halal for them to have sex? Is this correct?

No need for your to go thru posting such numerous links.

Does this mean that you acknowledge and stipulate that very very bad things are happening to children subject to this rule of Islam regarding marriage between adults and children.


Does this mean you acknowledge that there are men abusing the system to have their way with children?

Besides actually what Faris_ me posted is very relevant.

Its only relevant if taken in the context of religious law. Morals are derived from religion.


1 Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.


2 Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.


3 Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.


However secular law which respects the rights of the individual goes to great lengths to eliminate moral uncertainties which include determing when a child is ready to be an adult. Maturity is not something you define in the vacuum of religion. Rather it is a balance of physiological, psychological, and environmental consideration. But no one in the free world and many in your world do not hold with the idea that a 13 year old girl is ready to lay down with a 40 year old man in the bonds of marriage just because she has reached a physical maturity and is ready to do so.


Here that is called child abuse. And given the thousands of cases where this has happened and the child later has called this abuse, I think you need to acknowledge that such abuse occurs because of the Islamic laws that allow it.

As u clearly admitted on another thread, children start having sex in the West as early as 12 and 13.

And as I have clearly stated this is by CHOICE not by FORCE. STAY ON FOCUS MUSLIMAH the discussion is about forced marriage. Not two kids making a choice. You degrade the discussion when you do not stay on focus. We are discussing arranged marriages where children without freedom to say "no" are forced to marry, and consumate that marriage. And all those examples I cited PROVES that this occurs. When you jump off topic you really turn your back to the truth that is placed before you.

so Alhamdulelah, dont worry Universist about us Muslim women. Even if we suffer issues, Muslims Alhamdulelah have the ability to solve them. We dont need any western intervention. just worry about yourself and your life. Hope this is clear.

What is clear is that you once again disrespect me and my comments. You have not said a single thing here which shows that you acknowledge that abuses are occuring in your system of laws. And then you condescendingly pat me on the head like a child and tell me to run and play, that you Muslim women can take care of the issue...


You ignore the ongoing horror, and you turn your back to its truth. I bet that you did not click through and read even a single story that I gave you links to read. Your so scared of the truth that it is easier for you to be smug and ignore what I am saying. And that is a sin against those children in those accounts which I have tried to share with you.

May be this tone and attitude makes the anti American sentiments grow high in the Middle East. Just think about this comment a bit deep before u jump trying to reply.

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Maybe the fact that you have ignored what I sent you to read, and that you do not acknowledge the abuses is a reason Americans are fearful of Islam. Your complete system of justice doesn't seem to include justice for CHILDREN. And that you so easily dismiss this subject and turn your back to it gives me all the more reason to raise my voice in protection of these children.


And if that requires me to be the UGLY AMERICAN.


SO BE IT.


Universist