Posts: 51
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
Don't look for reason from people who have not learned this skill. Faith is not about reason or logic. And though they will protest loudly about the freedoms of thier enslavement, they can not and will not logically compare concepts of freedom outside thier experience. Truly they are enslaved and readily force this upon others who do not wish it. Women in Islam are not in any sense "free". Note the careful work around that Muslimah comments on about women in Saudi Arabia. How a women can remove the garb in private, but not in public, so thats a freedom. She has never been free so how can she understand it. Fear is what is taught in Islamic lands. Not freedom.
Universist
Posts: 7,440
Threads: 859
Joined: Aug 2002
Reputation:
0
10-02-2005, 08:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2005, 08:39 PM by Muslimah.)
Bismillah
Exactly Universist, we are not free but we are enslaved only to Allah by our choice. Rather than being enslaved to Pierre Cardin, Christian Dior or to a career path, or to means of making fortune. or or or .....etc the list can go forever.
alliex explained in a brief manner, we are free to make choices not to submit except to Allah or submit to the society, community, region...etc.
Like wise I dont think you will be able to grasp this concept although it is very simple.
I have the choice to abide by the dress code or not. I abide by it willingly and see no harm or oppression in this, i have the choice to establish prayer or not, Alhamdulelah, I choose to keep it and observe it all the time, I have a choice to drink alcohl or not I choose not to, I have a choice to go for sex without marriage, I choose not to willingly. I mean Allah Is not holding a sword to my neck making me choose to abide by His rules, I choose to with full conviction.
Hope you get the point I really hope so. You sound a reasonable and intelligent person. Although you resort to moching and disrespecting people around just to hide your insecurity.
But you prefer to turn a blind eye from the truth even if you see it, just to keep standing where you are.
Posts: 948
Threads: 104
Joined: Jul 2004
Reputation:
0
Bismillah
John
Do you know how MUCH you have changed lately? How come? I do hope you are not sick or troubled? Since the reaction sometimes when being disapponted about something in one's life, is then put onto others, it is like a annoyance that has to be worked off. But others 'get the blame'.
Quote:Rather than being enslaved to Pierre Cardin, Christian Dior or to a career path, or to means of making fortune. or or or .....etc the list can go forever.
Quote:That is your choice. Why do you wish to deny it to others ? Why are you so intolerant ?
The first is sister Muslimah's comment and the other one is yours.
This is a very good pinpoint of 'not understanding'. Many women are truly ENSLAVED to this in the West, BUT they think as you do, you think when pointing this out is a 'denial to others'? This denial as you do not see is enslavement. You do not see the connection in this enslavement, YOU see it as a choice, while for most Western WOMEN it is not a choice it is a MUST. That is NOT freedom John. That is lack of freedom of choice. Yes I know you will say, women can choose for themselves if they want to wear the latest fashion or not, some do, but many is brought up by this and do not see it as a choice but as a must.
So this kind of 'freedom-talk' is a cover up. You don't see it, since you live in the middle of it. Nor did I when I lived in the middle of it. That is WHY so many women find Islam so liberating, since these kind body/looks/and so on enslavement, does not exist in Islam. And you suddenly REALISE what you have been trapped in, and it makes you feel light and free and happy, when you can concentrate on being a human being instead. Very refreshening.
Posts: 948
Threads: 104
Joined: Jul 2004
Reputation:
0
Bismillah
John
We cannot come to terms on this enslavment issue, since you are locked up in your thinking, I do dare say mine has losen up.
Pierre Cardin is a French fashion designer, nowadays I think it is a whole industry since many women are enslaved to things like this. There is MONEY going round in bringing these kind of things to womens attention. So there is absolutely no knife needed.
Quote:I am sure there are many men and women who are slaves to fashion (or as I call them, fashion victims) but that is their choice.
Are you sure? Just like alcoholists 'choose' to be alcoholists? I call it enslavement. Just like people that use drugs 'choose' to do that? I call it enslavement. Just as the gamling that is SO HIGH, the hopes of winning so high too, is that truly a 'choice' or is it enslavment to the wish to win? The lists goes on. Many of these 'freedom things' are not a freedom at all, they deprive people of their freedom and exchanges that for needs that not originally are there. Enslavement.
Thanks, I like this refreshing path, being able to choose without enslavement issues that tells me where to go, instead I can make these choices myself.
Posts: 51
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:Bismillah
As Salam alaikum
I would agree that most Western women are not just sleeping with random strangers. I must add, though, that I do not know of one single woman of my peer group in my past or present who waited until marriage to have sex. I know of a girl who is still a virgin at 27 and is mocked by her friends behind her back for this fact. From my understanding, she is only a virgin because there has not been an opportunity not due to religious beliefs against premarital sex. From my peer group (notice that I keep using that frame of reference), anyone who is in any kind of somewhat serious relationship is having sex with that person. At my age, anyone who has been with a person for three or more months is most likely having sex with them. Many of my male friends would cheat on their girlfriends if they thought they could get away with it. Some did it even when they knew they would not get away with it.
It is difficult to deny one's sexuality when it is what is marketed. It is a manner by how Western people define themselves. Women want to look good in a bathing suit. So they can swim better? Men want ripped abs. So they can breathe better? A healthy level of bodyfat usually does not show really defined abs or super skinny legs, yet this is what is pursued. Usually in vain. Most of the people I know are unhappy with their body. This sounds like a lack of freedom to me, to have one's perception of self negatively affected by the media. Orgies are not happening in the streets but I do not know of anyone who is 100% satisfied with their physical appearance, no one. I include myself.
Just spouting.
As Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu
<a></a>21048[/snapback]
I want to say this is the most honest and clear cut assessment of western social interaction that I have heard on any Islamic site I have visited. And I agree with Dan that in my peer group this is clearly true as well. It is entirely true that western civilization is heavily marketed by capitalist enterprise using sex as a central theme in the promotion of products. It is clearly true that people absorb this message and early in life are very much captured by the messages promoted by this process. It is true that people often engage in sexual activity before marriage and it is true that health care issues surrounding sex are openly discussed and condoms are given out freely in schools and universities throughout the west.
Why? Because we are free to live our lives as we choose. And in that freedom you will find many a double edged sword. For instance one freedom that you have the RIGHT TO CHOOSE is the freedom to practice any religion that you wish. And in choosing your religion you have the right to practice it without intervention so long as your practice of it does not INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS. That is what true FREEDOM is about.
When balancing the many difficult issues that arise in a truly free society one must accept that there is no perfect path to life. That of course is not what followers of Islam believe, but then that is true for Christians, and Jews, and Buddhist, and insert any other religion you like *HERE*.
When any one religion dominates a society it overrules the practices and customs of other religions and CONFLICT always ensues. Hence the nearly 3000 years of historical religous conflict mankind has suffered. In the last 300 years a state was formed which cast off these bonds. These United States came to understand that in accepting any one religion, conflict was inevitable. And so this country decided to level the playing field. And the very first rule it laid out was to prevent a government from adopting any one religion as its own.
Here is that rule:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
This single rule, this First Amendment, is the rule which allowed America to become what it is today. ALL THE GOOD AND ALL THE BAD are due to this rule. And what this rule does is to make each and every one of us EQUAL.
No one is above another. And that principle is at the heart of Western ideas, and our way of being.
There is no doubt that you have the right to choose your own private hell.
And there is no doubt that FREEDOM is a double edged sword which cuts both ways.
What matters however in the end is that no one can be subjected to a way of living that they reject simply because a majority believe in a version of GOD which would restrict thier rights as inviduals. On the other hand if they CHOOSE that path, that is thier right.
And that is the core of the problem. Islam offers a complete way of life, including how a country should be run, and how ALL its people should be treated. But America says, choose your own way, and harm no others as you do it.
And that one simple difference is why we have touched the stars in less than 300 years, and the Muslim world after 1500 years still struggles with its past, and takes from the advances made by modern western civilization.
Clearly there are risk in being free. But I would choose that freedom for everyone as opposed to the kinds of totaletarian societies which have dominated Islam controlled countries for 1500 years.
Dan, thankyou for your honesty.
And I wish you a healthy baby, ten fingers, ten toes, and a big smile.
Universist
Posts: 948
Threads: 104
Joined: Jul 2004
Reputation:
0
Bismillah
John
Quote:You have been presumptious enough to imply that women are just too stupid to be allowed to decide what they do
.
I have NEVER mentioned that women are stupid, it will not be more correct only because you try to put words in my mouth. This has nothing to do with stupidity. I have no such statistics to refer to that this would be the case. And I doubt it is so.
You do defend 'your women' that they are free to make their own choices, called freedom, if they want to dress in fashion by Pierre Cardin, but your mind cannot go a bit further than that and give Muslim women that wish to follow Islam (instead of following P Cardin) the same credit that it is THEIR choice to do so. In one case, the Western model it is called freedom, and when making choices in Easter part of the world, it is called oppression. Strange.
Is this some kind of 'John's logic'?
Posts: 51
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:Bismillah
John
.
I have NEVER mentioned that women are stupid, it will not be more correct only because you try to put words in my mouth. This has nothing to do with stupidity. I have no such statistics to refer to that this would be the case. And I doubt it is so.
You do defend 'your women' that they are free to make their own choices, called freedom, if they want to dress in fashion by Pierre Cardin, but your mind cannot go a bit further than that and give Muslim women that wish to follow Islam (instead of following P Cardin) the same credit that it is THEIR choice to do so. In one case, the Western model it is called freedom, and when making choices in Easter part of the world, it is called oppression. Strange.
Is this some kind of 'John's logic'?
<a></a>21130[/snapback]
Of course you miss the point. What you fail to state is that non-muslim women in Islamic States who do not wish to wear what Islamic women choose to wear, are forced to do so in PUBLIC. Go look at John's posting about the recent statement made by the Suadi Arabian government regarding what non-muslims must do during Ramadan. You see its not about choice at all. Its about being forced to comply with an Islamic standard. NO CHOICE. NO FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. Simply comply or ELSE.
And the same is true in IRAN and YEMEN and SYRIA and insert totalatarian Islamo Facist government title *HERE*.
I love the way you twist the truth and then never never never make equal comparisons of FACT. Is this your form of honesty?
Universist.
Posts: 948
Threads: 104
Joined: Jul 2004
Reputation:
0
Bismillah
John
Quote:They (western women) can choose to wear the burqa, hijab veil but most of the time they choose not to.
That is so sad that the country P Cardin comes from, (France) does not know this
, that women have that right, (haven't you informed them John) - the west is not only USA you know...
Dream on John, I will now start celebrating the wonderful fast of Ramadan, and for now I couldn't care less about how women dress or not. They will have to be without my views for a while, I am sure they will enjoy it and so will surely you. I will use my choice of freedom to concentrate on more important things for a while.
Posts: 7,440
Threads: 859
Joined: Aug 2002
Reputation:
0
Bismillah
Just a small note, John is commenting on Dan's post as generalisations
What does Universist do then by calling Muslims a group of people who lack reason, like no one else can reason but him... Sobhan Allah what an arrogance.
Posts: 51
Threads: 5
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
10-05-2005, 01:40 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2005, 01:55 AM by Universist.)
Quote:Bismillah
Exactly Universist, we are not free but we are enslaved only to Allah by our choice. Rather than being enslaved to Pierre Cardin, Christian Dior or to a career path, or to means of making fortune. or or or .....etc the list can go forever.
Once again you avoid a truth. If you are non-muslim living in a Islamic State you have no choice. You MUST follow the muslim way in PUBLIC. Period. Why do you avoid this truth?
Quote:Like wise I dont think you will be able to grasp this concept although it is very simple.
And though it is very simple you fail to grasp the concept that what you might believe should not be forced on those who don't. And that is what you ignore completely. Shall I list the 100's of complaints of abuse in IRAN or SAUDI ARABIA heaped upon non-believers who dare not to follow the muslim ways forced upon them by Islamic LAW?
Quote:I have the choice to abide by the dress code or not. I abide by it willingly and see no harm or oppression in this, i have the choice to establish prayer or not, Alhamdulelah, I choose to keep it and observe it all the time, I have a choice to drink alcohl or not I choose not to, I have a choice to go for sex without marriage, I choose not to willingly. I mean Allah Is not holding a sword to my neck making me choose to abide by His rules, I choose to with full conviction.
Maybe you do have a choice. But you would be dishonest to say that this is a choice non-muslims have in Iran or Saudi Arabia. You support thier acts through your ommission that what they do is wrong.
You support oppression by ignoring the fact that Islam as LAW in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, and other countries forces non-muslims to live in public under Islamic standards which are the anti-thesis of true freedom.
On the other hand wasn't it American and British troops which swooped into the Balkans and saved hundreds of thousands of muslims from certain demise at the hand of non-muslims. Yes America did what no one from your neck of the woods would do for your own. What a shameful state of affairs that no one from any Islamic State took it upon themselves to intervene in that horrible atrocity until the United States of America entered the fray.
Islamic States are all about the oppression but you don't see them committing support to any other Islamic nation in times of great need. Nope that just doesn't happen. BUT I SUPPORT FREEDOM AND MY TAX MONEY PAID FOR TROOPS THAT WENT TO THE BALKANS TO SAVE THE LIVES OF MUSLIMS. And you treat me with disrespect when I have contributed what I could to stop those atrocities. Who is arrogant I ask you, the one who calls for freedom and backs it up with action, or the one who turns the blind eye and does not help thier brother, and oppresses non muslims?
Quote:Hope you get the point I really hope so. You sound a reasonable and intelligent person. Although you resort to moching and disrespecting people around just to hide your insecurity.
But you prefer to turn a blind eye from the truth even if you see it, just to keep standing where you are.
<a></a>21110[/snapback]
You disrespect me through your omission of the facts I raise in your responses. You may be free in Egypt, but only because the man controlling your country has forced Islam to the side in respect to the highest levels of government control. One day he will fall, an Islamic Totaletarian State will take control, and all freedom for non-muslims will go away just as it has in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, Pakistan, and every other place Islam manages to control.
I turn no blind eye to truth. In my country we respect Muslims and thier ways. I have no issue with Islam in America as I am not forced to accept their ways and they have no power to enforce thier rules outside their mosque or homes. Here the core value of our system begins with freedom of religion, speech, right to assembly, and right to pettition the government. We do not force our ways on Muslims. They have the true freedom of choice here. Unlike non-muslims in your lands.
And that is as it should be in a truly free society. And if you find that unusual I am not suprised. You have yet to admit that the conditions of which I speak are indeed the rule as opposed to exception in the Islamic States which I have listed. Your comments are no less arrogant or mocking when you omit truth from your statements, or fail to acknowledge the truth in mine.
Universist
|
