Login

AhmedBahgat · (This post was last modified: 09-13-2005, 10:29 PM by AhmedBahgat.)

Quote:

Bismillah


Brother Ahmed, BTW I dont think u agree with John's view -specially being a non Muslim - about polygyny specially when he calls it demeaning. 


Nothing can be called demeaning as long as Allah Legalized it.[/qoute]


Thank you sister and my thanks to all who contributed


of course sister I do not agree that polygamey is demeaning to women, however I agree that the way men implement it makes it demeaning to women, it is a cultural thingy sister, even in the non muslim cultures who practise polygamy, for what Allah legalized, it is impossible to classify it as demeaning, Allah is the All Knowing, however there are laws that Allah legalized yet, He hates us to do it, like Divorce for example, I would say if a man marry another woman for lust and not for care of her orphans then I'm not in favour of this, I follow Allah to the word, if He told me that no man can be fair with multiple wives and should marry only one, then I will trust Allah in His analysis aboiut His creatures and I will take it for granted and I will only marry one, I'm already married for 15 years to my soul mate and lovely wife and I have 2 kids with her, 14 years old daughter (sara) and 15 months old son (Noor El Deen), I can't imagine that I live without them, or have another family but them




<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Muslimah" data-cite="Muslimah" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="3000" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic">
<div>Before I continue, I need to clarify that I am doing this in the name of Allah and onlyAllah Insh a Allah trying to be as sincere as possible. Not to make a presence or for the sake of argument.

me too sister, and I hope all understand this and keep it civil, constructive and respectful

Quote:Brother Ahmed what is even more important is that - and I fully unerstand where u r coming from being an Egyptian - some of the Muslims got so much affected with Christian influence and thus see polygyny as stigma. I mean the society looks down to a man who goes for it.

any society must be based on fairness between all its members, man woman, poor rich, rubbish removalist or a president, Allah knows that no man can be fair between women so He told us to marry only ONE, in fact the Quran is the only book that says marry only one and I will follow Allah advice, heart, soul and mind

Quote:Brother, when Omar wanted to strengthen his relation with the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam, he was not wrong. Remember brother, Omar was the one whose opinion agreed with Quran revelation in about 3 occaisons.

I did not say he was wrong, however I can not compare myself to the great sahaba or the prophet, I can't even be 1/100 of their qualities, as well I can not compare the current social and worldy circumstances with others who lived 1400 years ago, it may be of a necessity at the time that mulsim men marry a lot to spread the religion from one person to 1.8 billion person, it may the reaosn to fulfill Allah words that His religion will prevail over all other religions "Allah only knows", you see sister, the prophet married a 6 years old girl, while I know it was a legal and honorable marriage at the time "1400 years ago", this can not happen now for sure due to many reasons


my argument is this sister, if Allah knows that men can not be fair between women and consequently He told us to marry only one, then it is clear that there is only one option available which is to marry only one because no man will be fair between women even if it was their strong desire

Quote:
Now back to the topic. If we as muslims became so much affected with Western culture and feel bad about certain things, then we are in major trouble.
If we started trying to look why Allah Legalized this or that just because we feel degraded in front of the western flood, then we are even in more major trouble.

no sister, i careless about what the western society thinks of Islam, I care more about what the muslims think and understand from Islam, i did not invent anything sister, the verse is clear "MEN CAN NOT BE FAIR WITH MULTIPLE WIVES AND CONSEQUENTLY MEN SHOULD MARRY ONE ONLY" it is written in the quran, but for muslim men to turn a blind eye about this important fact SAID BY ALLAH IN HIS QURAN, then I say they are nothing but careless, ignornat, arrogant muslim men

Quote:I guess u never questioned yourself why Allah Commanded us to bow and prostrate in Salah. But just because polygyny is an aspect in Islam that receives much criticism you are trying to dig out verification. The problem is that when Allah Makes something lawful, Allah Does this taking in consideration all types of Allah's own creation which no one knows it better than Allah. Measuring by your own viewpoint, which is no matter how insightful you are is not a proper criteria compared to Allah's Wisdom.

as I said sister I have no problem with polygamy as long as there is a moral and social cause for it, I will always be against it if it is for lust


Allah knows well by marrying another women, the men can not be fair between them, and this is called injustice as the quran called it, however because a possible larger injustice may happen to the orphans, and due to a one fundamental law in islam ( if a lesser harm will stop a bigger harm then the lesser harm should be done), and that is what polygamy is for me


if a lesser harm (being unfair between wives) will stop the bigger harm of not being just with the orphans then I should go with the lesser harm, makes great sense to me and runs in great harmony with the Quran verses regarding polygamy

Quote:
Only Allah Knows why any man goes for polygyny and if he can handle it fine if not it is his own problem. There are men who are not equipped for it. I saw that. 
But on the other hand there are others who are able to do it just because there will be women who need this.

I will agree that the law may be covering also desperate woman in need who have no children (Allah knows best) the reason I will have to accept this is the moral and social cause to protect and supply for that poor woman

Quote:
I prefer not to reply to a non Muslim's opinion calling an aspect of Islam demeaning in the usual manner. Like making comparison with the status of Western women.

I actually love to reply to those non muslims as long as they will put their arguments on the table with respect, in fact I'm an active member on a free speech amercian forum and it is anti islam as well, I defend islam hard in there and I have a different style that I implement over there, in the last year since I joined I made 11,000 comments, (half of those comments are Quran based) and in fact one of the enemy of islam on that web site has embraced islam after debating it with me (alhamdullelah) (he also defended Islam with me for a while)


Allah is Great


peace to everyone


</div>

</blockquote>

***Muslimah*** · 09-14-2005, 06:49 AM

Bismillah

as salam alykom Umm

Let us take the new topic John is proposing to the non Muslim section as he requested. which is I think would be his 5th request to discuss Muslim women status versus the West.

However, John before we do that I would really appreciate and mind u I am requesting this almos for the 6th time, that u adopt a repsectful attitude towards members in general as they do towards u. It does not help much that you play in this attitude.

Brother Ahmed I will stop here, I had more to say but I prefer to stop.

***Muslimah*** · 09-14-2005, 08:02 PM

Bismillah

John I did start the thread, but I m here to just make a comment:

FYI a Muslim woman is entitled to stipulate in her marriage contract that her husband does not take another wife or else she would be automatically divorced.

Insh a Allah we may continue on the other thread

***Muslimah*** · 09-14-2005, 08:07 PM

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Brother Ahmed I know I said Id stop only to avoid being in an argument u know what I mean, in following of the Sunnah.

But again let me just say this, polygyny is a safety valve for many diseases that may befall the socitey. Being in a monogomus marriage yourself and satisfied Alhamdulelah does never mean that another man going into polygyny is wrong.

Brother, it was not only Omar who did that, most of the companions went into polygyny during the Messenger's life, were they all wrong? how come he didnt tell them off?

We must really think many times before trying to anaylze what Allah Made lawful. We must be very careful not to limit Allah's Mercy when Allah Expanded it. Just like I told u, in case someone had a surgery and cannot apply water, will this person be deprived of the license to do Tayamum, because he /she is not in a desert with no water?

Just think again before you continue insisting, just because you are Mash a Allah Alhamdulelah happily married to the one woman.

Allah's Wisdom is far beyond identification, I can actually make a list of at least 10 reasons why Allah Made polygyny permissible.

AhmedBahgat · 09-15-2005, 12:25 AM

Thank you sister Muslimah, and I hope you are doing great

firstly The Quran did not invent polygamy, it was practised all over the history,

i.e. Islam did not make it lawful, it was already lawful, Islam only put an upper limit

but you still turning a blind eye on my strong argument sister

Allah said clearly that NO MAN CAN BE FAIR WITH MULTIPLE WIVES, and consequently He adviced us to marry only one

"فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً"

that is what I'm talking about sister, unfortunalty Muslim men turn a blind eye on this important fact by Allah:

"وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ"

I do not think, i can be accused of NOT FOLLOWING ALLAH WORDS or being confused about it, I was a top student in the Arabic language and Nahaw, and I read the Quran over 15 times thoroughly for the last 25 years with the help of Allah alhamdullellah

in fact I'M FOLLOWING ALLAH WORDS TO THE WORD, please read those arabic verses again sister and explain to me what does it mean

Peace to all

***Muslimah*** · 09-15-2005, 11:19 AM

Bismillah

Praise be to Allah King of the Kings, Owner of the Universe, Creator of all that exists, I seek Allah's Close guidance and support in what I am about to put here, prayer and peace be upon His Messenger Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.

as salam alykom brother

I am quite aware of the fact that Islam didnt actually invent polygyny, I never mentioned this in my post. I rather exactly said Allah Made it lawful and put an upper limit of 4.

Neither I am turning a blind eye on the Ayahs u posted, no way, those are the rules of the ruling brother.

Now to my humble understanding, mind u i am not a scholar neither even near one, my knowledge is very limited may Allah Increase me in knowledge ameen.

The ruling was made in Quran in order to sort of establish the bases for what was already taking place at that time.

Back to the Ayahs u quoted:

As far as I understand the Messenger explained the being equal in everything which include: financial support, accomodation, time, treatment, etc. BUt the emotional aspect is the hard one to fulfill equality in. This is what Allah Is Warning men about. The ability to be just in the emotional aspect. It is a warning for the difficulty of the situation which may arise. It is the option aspect Allah Is Making. In other words, this is how u know that u may or may not go into polygyny. It is not a must.

For example when Allah Ordains Salat Allah Say Establish Salah (prayer), also say: enjoined for you fasting ( i m translating from the top of my mind) just it was prescribed for those before u. NO option is given, but the rulings are made elaborate for those who have execuses, as in the ill or a traveller with an end of the Ayahs but if u fast it is better for u.

Now the ill and traveller has an option to decide according to one's condition, either to take the Divine permission and not fast and make them up later or choose to fast as the Ayahs encourages at the end.

Now take for example that Allah described Qital in Quran as being hateful, yet Did Command Muslims not to ignore it.

Allah also warned us against the difficulty of other types of worships, I will not elaborate, I am just trying to explain as clearly as possible.

If we apply this:

1. The Ayah would be originally helping men to avoid taking advantage of the orphans, thus may marry 2, 3 or 4.

2. Men will find difficulty in dealing justly with women specially in the emotional aspect.

3. Allah Is confirming this difficulty with the option still open to either take or not.

wallahu a`lem

And I never accused u of not following Allah's words, not sure where u got this from.

And if possible pls put the English translations of the Ayahs u quoted here.

AhmedBahgat · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2005, 07:01 AM by Muslimah.)

Quote:
Bismillah
Praise be to Allah King of the Kings, Owner of the Universe, Creator of all that exists, I seek Allah's Close guidance and support in what I am about to put here, prayer and peace be upon His Messenger Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam.


as salam alykom brother

AA Sister

Alhamdullelah ala Al Iman

Quote:I am quite aware of the fact that Islam didnt actually invent polygyny, I never mentioned this in my post. I rather exactly said Allah Made it lawful and put an upper limit of 4.

I believe it is a mistunderstanding in communication, what I meant that polygamy was lawful before Islam, so Islam only put an upper limit but did not make it lawful, I would say Islam confirmed its legality

Quote:Neither I am turning a blind eye on the Ayahs u posted, no way, those are the rules of the ruling brother.

sorry I did not mean any offence to you sister, however I insist that most muslim men are turing a blind eye

Quote:Now to my humble understanding, mind u i am not a scholar neither even near one, my knowledge is very limited may Allah Increase me in knowledge ameen.

Alhamdellah sister, however I can say that your knowledge is nopt limited in fact it put the knowledge of many muslim men to shame if compared, I congratulate on that and I appreciate you being down to earth, but I can say confidentlly sister that my knoweldge is not limited, Allah has blessed me with the love for reading since I was 8 years old, and since then I just eat books, I have a huge liberary sister (in two languages) in addition to what I print from the internet, my wife always mad at me from the papers scattered every where in our house, piles and piles, every year I throw about 50 kg of papers that I printed from the net and read many times, the most admired/fascinating book in my liberary is the Quran for sure, I love it to death, and I know for certain that I'm not one of those who tend to mislead the self, it can't happen, I'm a very logical man, in fact my strong belief is only based on logic, I'm not sure if I introduced my profession to the members here, I'm actually a civil structural engineer specialised in steal structures, as well I'm a computer engineer and a programmer, I'm also into mechanical and electrical engieering as a hobby, so I'm one of those humans who deploy their "Aqal" "brain" as the Quran mentioned numerous times, I never take things for granted and all my life I have to prove any thing that is in the list of my concerns or interests, there is nothing wrong about that, but some people take it the wrong way, possibly this can be another discussion between us, as I sensed that you are upset or disppointed as I read between the lines of your comment, please do not, I'm a very strong debater and possibly it reflected in the way I post without intension as I'm not debating anything with my muslim sister (you) rather I'm trying to understand from a vast variety of muslims including men and women from all countries how they see a few important subjects in Islam, like polygamy, as well like the death of Jesus pbuh, and I have many more sister, what I have is the result of intense reading not an invention whatsoever, it is also due to the fact I'm really good in the arbic language as well somehow I can use the Quran to always back me up (alhamdulellah), I learnt this blessing from Al Sharway (may Allah bless his soul), in fact on the anti Islam forum about 10 months ago I had a heated and lengthy debate with a 24 years old american who was attacking islam as a religion of terror, after spending months debating Chrisyianity and Islam and I answered all his questions with logic from the Quran, he told me with his own words on the forum that it is very satisfying to him that the Quran is answering all the questions, he ended up submitting to Islam (Alhamdullelah), another one who lives in the UK (a first cousin to my wife) he left islam, because of many issues he had and never found an answer I'm answering all his questions for about 10 months now and his arrogance is gettin down and down, I can see it, and inshaallah he will revert back to islam, he also told me that it was impressing that I only use the Quran with logic and common sense in addition to my fluecy in Arabic as well its Nahaw made him to start re-thinking (he is egyptian btw, a 43 years old man), so I can say yes I gained knowledge because I always wanted it and worked hard for it in a period spanning 25 years and still working hard, and I will not be shy to use it as well I will not be arrogant not to accept being proved wrong and concede, who has not made mistakes?, NON, and I hope Allah helps us all in minimising the mistakes we do regarding the understanding of His blessed words

Quote:The ruling was made in Quran in order to sort of establish the bases for what was already taking place at that time.

Dear sister, I understand this perfectly, in fact I composed a lengthy article (many together, as well my own words in between) to refute the argument against Islam regarding women and their treatment by Muslim men, I included every thing sister, historical data, bible/quran verses, encyclopedias comments, as well known books about marriage etc etc, I discussed the two verses again in this article but I stuck with the common belief rather my own understanding to avoid conflict with the muslim brothers, I also discussed the prophet marraiges especially his marraige to Zainab, Aysha, and Maria (may Allah bless them all), this is a very good post sister if you like I can bring it in here, there is a lot of info in there and took me weeks to put together

Quote:
Back to the Ayahs u quoted:
As far as I understand the Messenger explained the being equal in everything which include: financial support, accomodation, time, treatment, etc. BUt the emotional aspect is the hard one to fulfill equality in. This is what Allah Is Warning men about. The ability to be just in the emotional aspect. It is a warning for the difficulty of the situation which may arise. It is the option aspect Allah Is Making. In other words, this is how u know that u may or may not go into polygyny. It is not a must.

I'm sorry sister with my total respect, the verse never explicitly stated the unfairness will be emotional, it is a general statement (Lan Ta'Edelo). while the explanation by the prophet is logical and accepted, what I saw and see in life that the emotional diffrentiation is the least sin the polygomous husbands do, rather the unfairness is mostely in all the other topics you mentioned, very strange indeed.

I did not say the Quran syas, it is a must to marry only one, what I understand that polygamy in islam was restricted and conditioned by Allah, and the way it is practised by muslim men all over the world absolutely violates those conditions and restrictions, no question about it sister, but I know the truth hurts and believe me it hurts me exactly as it hurts you

Quote:
For example when Allah Ordains Salat Allah Say Establish Salah (prayer), also say: enjoined for you fasting ( i m translating from the top of my mind) just it was prescribed for those before u. NO option is given, but the rulings are made elaborate for those who have execuses, as in the ill or a traveller with an end of the Ayahs but if u fast it is better for u.
Now the ill and traveller has an option to decide according to one's condition, either to take the Divine permission and not fast and make them up later or choose to fast as the Ayahs encourages at the end.

Sure sister, and polygamy is exactly the same, it will be better to marry only one because it will make us avoid being unfair, I did not say we should only marry one, but (for me I took it as I should marry one as Allah is telling me that I will not be able to be fair between the two/three/four even if I tried hard and this will make me commit injustice so I'm going to avoid it). but again sister how many polygoumous men you saw in egypt or any other muslim country that married more than one wife for fearing not be fair with the orphans?

in my case sister ( I only saw two men in my 40 years of life so far, all the others were for only a climate change), this is an amazing fact that can not be ignored sister.

Quote:
Now take for example that Allah described Qital in Quran as being hateful, yet Did Command Muslims not to ignore it. 
Allah also warned us against the difficulty of other types of worships, I will not elaborate, I am just trying to explain as clearly as possible.

I understand you perfectly sister (100%), but I hope you understand where I'm coming from as well.

Quote:
If we apply this:
1. The Ayah would be originally helping men to avoid taking advantage of the orphans, thus may marry 2, 3 or 4.

can you please elaborate on how the multiple marriages will help men in avoiding to take advantage of the prophans?

here is 2 different understanding sister, one from a mufti on an Islamic web site, I will find the link later and post it:

the mufti said the aya means if you want to marry an ORPHANED WOMEN, and you fear to be injust with her then DO NOT MARRY HER AND MARRY ANOTHER NON ORPHANED WOMEN UP TO FOUR

here another understaniding sister from a polygomous egyptian:

the polygomous egytian said the aya means if you want to marry an ORPHANED WOMAN and you want to pay very little dowry to her and you fear that this is not just, then marry another women (up to three now) and pay the same amount of dowry that was planned to be paid for the ORPHANED WIFE, and by doing so the man is fair with the orphaned woman

I can say comfortably sister that the above two opinions are redicilous and even funny

Quote:2. Men will find difficulty in dealing justly with women specially in the emotional aspect.

I agree for sure, but the facts in life prove that polyogomous men tend to fail more in the other aspects other than the emotiional asspect.

Quote:
3. Allah Is confirming this difficulty with the option still open to either take or not.
wallahu a`lem

No question about it sister, and I see it that Allah wants us to take it if it will be as a matter of care for the oprhans so falling into the sin of never being able to treat all wives with just is justified by the more moral cause which is the care for the orphans

Quote:And I never accused u of not following Allah's words, not sure where u got this from.

I'm sorry sister, it was misunderstanding

Quote:
And if possible pls put the English translations of the Ayahs u quoted here.

Sorry again sister, but please be aware, when I respond quickly *****
sometimes, I will difinitly make sure that it will NOT be the case aften

take care and please watch for my comment about women in all religions when I bring it in, do you want it is a specific forum? please let me know

Peace

***Muslimah*** · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2005, 07:39 AM by Muslimah.)

Bismillah

as salam alykom brother

I am not the least offended, I m not here to be pleased or offended by members comments.

We are all here to serve Allah and only Allah, when we are blessed with posting correct info it is from Allah and we should never claim personal credit.

so I m not the least upset with u. Not at all. Matter of fact, I dont expect you are here to please anyone but Allah.

Besides I dont think that being down to earth is something to be commended for, I think that every Muslims must be so. Arrogance or braging about our abilities is not part of the Muslim character. We always must remember Allah's blessings and bounties and be Grateful for what we get, Alhamdulelah for Allah's multiple endless bounties.

Brother I edited your above post, for it contained a term that u often use which is inappropriate on an Islamic board. Hope u dont use it again Jazakum Allah khairan

AhmedBahgat · 09-16-2005, 07:51 AM

Thank you sister

sorry about the word, however I can't recall that I used a bad word, I tried to complete the sentence and I only found one word that may fit, this woird is commonly used in Australia, the word is a version of the word blood, would that be right?

i just need to know, at least I do not use it again,

Thanks

***Muslimah*** · 09-16-2005, 07:54 AM

Bismillah

no it does not contain blood, but to me it is even hard to repeat it, I will try to hint it.

It contains a tool name and ends with up.

It is a term not a word.

Jazakum Allah khairan

I m sure u dont mean to offend and it is just typing fast.

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me