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AhmedBahgat · (This post was last modified: 09-12-2005, 01:19 PM by AhmedBahgat.)

Hello Brothers and Sisters

This is a very interesting subject, and I will apprecite everyone's input Muslim or Not

We all know that the Allah told Muslim Men to marry up to 4 AS LONG AS THE HUSBAND WILL BE 100% fair between all wives:

“If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.”

[The Quran ; 4:3] 



وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ (3)

-> This is the verse that allows Muslim men to marry up to 4 women, there is no other location in the Quran that talks about polygamy other than this verse. This is a very important verse in the Quran, a very detailed understanding is really required but please bear in mind that I read all the tafseer to it in Arabic many times by the following :

A) Ibn Kathir

B) Al Gallalin

C) Al Tabarri

D) Al Qurtuby

Clear in the verse that Allah said “Marry Two or Three or Four”, but that was as a solution to a problem, also the same verse stated to “Mary Only One” but again that was another solution to another problem,

-> If we look again on the English translation above, we can easily identify the two problems and the solutions told to us by Allah :

I) The first problem: “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans,”

i.e “IF WE FEAR NOT TO BE ABLE TO DEAL JUSTLY WITH THE ORPHANS”, i did not add much the words are very clear indeed. the most important keyword in here is “The Orphans”

The solution : “Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four”

We can see easily see that the problem was about “The Orphans” and the solution was to marry “Women”

All the scholars interpreted this verse with difficulty; in fact many were a bit confused about it, please read all the tafseer by those top 4 great scholars.

Their interpretation was briefly as follow:

In the past men used to marry the Orphaned Women and not pay their dowries, obviously because they had no parents to take care of this condition and insist on it, so the scholars interpretation was, this verse tell them to marry up to four as a solution.

Come on brothers and sisters, this does not make any sense whatsoever.

First of all the verse was talking about a problem related to “THE ORPHANS”, NOT 
to “THE ORPHANED WOMEN”, please read it again in both languages, but assuming this understanding that the verse is talking about “THE ORPHANED WOMEN” we will find easily that the proposed solution does not make sense,

if you fear not to pay the dowry to the Orphaned Women, Marry up to 4

logically speaking, I would say that it should be like this:

if you fear not to pay the dowry to the Orphaned Women, do not marry 4 (one is enough and you should still pay the dowry to her)

Am I right here brothers and sisters?

It seems the scholars got mixed up with another verse in the same sura, let’s have a look at it:



“They ask thy instruction concerning the women say: Allah doth instruct you about them: And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry
, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed: that ye stand firm for justice to orphans
. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.”

[The Quran ; 4:127]

 

وَيَسْتَفْتُونَكَ فِي النِّسَاء قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِيهِنَّ وَمَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الْكِتَابِ فِي يَتَامَى النِّسَاء الَّلاتِي لاَ تُؤْتُونَهُنَّ مَا كُتِبَ لَهُنَّ وَتَرْغَبُونَ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ وَالْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الْوِلْدَانِ وَأَن تَقُومُواْ لِلْيَتَامَى بِالْقِسْطِ وَمَا تَفْعَلُواْ مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِهِ عَلِيمًا (127)

-> After reading this great verse in the same sura , the confusion arose in verse 3 has been cleared

-> It seems verse 3 is talking about a totally different thing, that RELATES TO THE ORPHANS in general, NOT to the ORPHANS OF WOMEN

-> The Quran clearly differentiated between the General Orphans and Orphans of women in this verse, can you see “as also” between the two?, it also clearly stated the problem of not paying the dowry

-> going back to verse 3 that allows Muslim men to marry up to 4:



“If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.”

[The Quran ; 4:3]

-> We all know that this verse was revealed after Uhud Battle, in which too many Muslim men died, most of those Muslim men left widows and children behind, it was very important for Allah to provide a solution regarding the care of those orphans, especially their fathers died for the cause of Islam, while I will agree that any capable man can take any oath to help any orphan, possibly by paying a certain amount of money per month to his/her mother, but again what guarantee that this kind man will continue to do as such until the orphaned children grow independent?, there is no guarantee for sure, possibly in a month I forgot, or I went away for a few months, or I prefer my children to have the money this month, etc etc, we are humans not Angels, and truly I may take an oath to help a poor orphan but I may fear that I may forget this help at a certain time under certain circumstances, the most legitimate way to show my sincere desire to help the orphans “the most in need” and defeat my fear to not to deal with them justly is to marry their mother “the second most in need”, in fact that was a commo practise in Egypt, when a borther dies and leave a wife and children, one of his other brothers marry his sister in law "even if he was married" to take care of his brother chidlren, I'm sure that was inherited when the polygamy was Islamicaly and morally practised in the past

I can not believe that for those many years Muslims thought a man after getting bored with his wife just go and marry up to four, this is ridiculous and is so unfair for women, especially they may also get bored with their husbands, while the two still continue to love each other,

I can see easily the effect of this flawed understanding in many families including members in my family who resorted to this flawed understanding without putting any amount of reasonable and logical thoughts regarding it and just following what was said as long as it is in their favour, if man simply wants to marry another woman to satisfy a lust then sure this most likely will end in an undesirable outcome regarding both families I reckon, I have seen many examples in life in my country of origin Egypt.

We can see that the Quran stresses the care for orphans big times in many locations, and this makes great sense because the children if raised properly, many future problem regarding their nature, their belief, and their integrity can be avoided, it is a lesson from Allah to show us how extreme we can take it by marrying their mother, as long as the main objective is to help the orphans and raise them properly and to demolish the fear not to treat the orphans unjustly.

But sure this solution will cause another problem and because Allah is the All Knowing and All Just, He can’t not leave it unresolved especially He is the one to create the solution:

II) The second problem: “but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one”

i.e “IF WE FEAR NOT TO BE ABLE TO DEAL JUSTLY WITH THE MULTIPLE WIVES”

Again can’t be straighter than this indeed.

The solution : then only one

The solution sounds more of an order to me, because Allah will not just consider the orphans and careless about the first wife or wives if the husband wanted to care for more orphans, Allah is always just and because He provided the solution, and He knows us very well, He knows that the solution will have side effects, the main side effect will be the jealousy between the wives "we have seen even examples between the prophet wives sura "Al Tahrim", this well sure lead to unjust treatment from the husband towards his wives, but again how many men thought about this before marrying another woman?

Well if you marry another woman for lust, I bet you will never think about fearing to not to be fair between them

But of you marry another woman for caring for her orphaned children then I bet the thought will come to mind regarding the first wife, make sense to anyone?

We also need to ask?, why 4?, why not 6? Why not 10?

I asked myself these questions after seeing how the Quran stressed it : “Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four” 

Certainly a man can marry more than 4, we have known about prophets marrying hundreds, and sure normal humans who married hundreds

If it was for lust reason, then there should not be an upper limit, but if it was permitted JUST for the care of the orphans then an upper limit may logically be for a reason, because if each woman has one orphan then that is 4 orphans to care for, if each has 2 then that is 8 to care for and as the number or orphans that each woman increases, the total number for the orphans to care for will be huge, adding to that my own children for sure, but working on an average the number 4 will make great sense if the average is 2 from each wife, so the upper limit is required because the polygamy reason is to care for as many orphans from a max of 4 wives with orphans, not to have a climate change with another wife

We can also see how Allah was very accurate in delivering His solution by including these words “of your choice”, which simply means I still have to look at their mother and see if she will be a good wife, not because I want to care for her orphans I will be locked up with a horrible woman “if she is”, i.e. I must have a choice and evaluation to the mother of those orphans

Very great teaching from Allah, He is considering every bit of details, He is being fair with the Orphans, He is being fair with the Husbands by allowing them to make a choice and cosider the women as wives, and He is fair with all wives by telling us to MUST deal justly with them all, the last bit in this very important verse may give the inclination that Allah is talking about marrying women with orphans , not single women, let’s look at it:

“that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. “

i.e if we fear not to treat the multiple wives justly then we SHOULD MARRY ONLY ONE because that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

The last words were translated wrong actually, while it may sound ok and logical as that is the ultimate objective is NOT TO DO INJUSTICE, the arabic words were totally different: “ZALEK ADNA ALA TA’OOLO”, truly it does not mean what was translated by Yusuf Ali, in fact it is striking to see what it means in Arabic, I’m sure all Arabic speakers know what the word “TA’OOLO” means, it clearly means that you have “Eial” “Children” to care for, again please look at the tafsir and see how it was hard for them to find out what it means, some said it means “Lean to another direction” “Tamil” again they based their understanding on another verse on the same sura that the word "Tamil" was used, some suggested it means "to do injustice”, in fact the arabic word is a very common word that means have plenty of “Eial” to care for, “TA’OOLO” or to have plenty of "Dependants"

i.e. it is better to marry one wife than marrying many while being unjust with them and have plenty of children to care for, because it was assumed that the husband intension of the multiple marriage is to care for another “Eial”, “children” not to change the life style by marrying another woman

What is left for me to discuss is Allah did not leave to men to judge if they will be fair between the ,multiple wives or not, because simply men can mislead themselves that they will do so but in reality it can’t happen so Allah can’t leave this without mentioning because He knows us best, let’s read it from the same sura:



“Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

[The Quran ; 4:129]

 

وَلَن تَسْتَطِيعُواْ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ بَيْنَ النِّسَاء وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ فَلاَ تَمِيلُواْ كُلَّ الْمَيْلِ فَتَذَرُوهَا كَالْمُعَلَّقَةِ وَإِن تُصْلِحُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا (129)

-> Very straight teachings from the Quran men just can’t be fair between women : "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women", but look what the Quran said after : "even if it is your ardent desire", i.e men may mislead themselves to think they will be capable to be fair between multiple wives, and because we know it can’t happen then marry only one exactly as the Quran stated word for word

Again I dicsussed this findings by many msulims in australia, a mufti on a sunni forum and an ex muslim who lives in the UK and I'm trying to get him back to the right oath inshaallah, and a muslim in egypt who already marrying to 2

ironically I ended up with 5 understandings:

1) the one I explained above

2) another one from the mufti

3) another one from the plogymous egyotain

4) the one we have from the tafsir regarding the dowry

5) another one from an Islamic forum for muslim sisters

this is really funny and will be the subject of my following comments inshaallah

please add your thoughts

Peace to all

***Muslimah*** · 09-12-2005, 07:39 PM

Bismillah

as salam alykom brother

Jazakum Allah khairan katheeran for sharing these thoughts.

I m not sure should I hold on till u post the rest of the opinions or just make a humble comment.

any way since I am already here, brother certainly we agree that the reason of revealing this ayah was originally in protection to orphans as u just stated, i will not repeat this.

However, whenever Allah Legalized something, Allah always Did this on an occaision.

Ex. when Tayamum became permitted, it was on the occaison of Aasha loosing her necklace during a trip.

When adoption became prohibited, it was made so thru a very clear and strong action. when the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam was commanded to marry Zaid's wife.

when doing good deeds was made a cause for erasing bad deeds, it was made so thru the situation in which a companion kissed a woman and went telling the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam after praying Asr in congregation.

My point is, yes polygyny was made persmissible thru this situation of the orphans. However, was not restricted on this situaiton.

I mean Allah Didnt restrict Taymum only if we get stuck in the desert looking for a necklace. But Allah Is the Was`e All Wide and Compassionate. Allah Gave us this license to use even if we fear for our life and health when water is so cold.

Can u see my point. Other wise brother the companions were not going to follow this sunnah of polygyny. I mean Omar after the death of the Messenger married his granddaughter just to attain closeness to the Messenger not to look after orphans.

Brother I understand that u r looking much for a reason on why Allah Allowed men this, when Islam is most of the time blamed for it.

But let me tell u I am a woman and I tell you polygyny is not conditioned. I mean a man does not have to have an execuse to marry. If he fails to be just it is his own problem not the system.

I mean we can not blame the company's by law for the failure of employees to abide by it, can we?

Yes it was legalized in such situation but made to serve as means for so many reasons our limited understanding can not graps. This is Allah's Wisdom brother.

Although I saw in many cases that Allah Is The All Wise and polygyny is a must.

Alhamdulelah for Islam.

AhmedBahgat · (This post was last modified: 09-12-2005, 08:45 PM by AhmedBahgat.)

Quote:Bismillah
as salam alykom brother

Jazakum Allah khairan katheeran for sharing these thoughts.

I m not sure should I hold on till u post the rest of the opinions or just make a humble comment.

any way since I am already here, brother certainly we agree that the reason of revealing this ayah was originally in protection to orphans as u just stated, i will not repeat this.

However, whenever Allah Legalized something, Allah always Did this on an occaision.

Ex. when Tayamum became permitted, it was on the occaison of Aasha loosing her necklace during a trip.

When adoption became prohibited, it was made so thru a very clear and strong action. when the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam was commanded to marry Zaid's wife.

when doing good deeds was made a cause for erasing bad deeds, it was made so thru the situation in which a companion kissed a woman and went telling the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam after praying Asr in congregation.

My point is, yes polygyny was made persmissible thru this situation of the orphans. However, was not restricted on this situaiton.

I mean Allah Didnt restrict Taymum only if we get stuck in the desert looking for a necklace. But Allah Is the Was`e All Wide and Compassionate. Allah Gave us this license to use even if we fear for our life and health when water is so cold.

Can u see my point. Other wise brother the companions were not going to follow this sunnah of polygyny. I mean Omar after the death of the Messenger married his granddaughter just to attain closeness to the Messenger not to look after orphans.

Brother I understand that u r looking much for a reason on why Allah Allowed men this, when Islam is most of the time blamed for it.

But let me tell u I am a woman and I tell you polygyny is not conditioned. I mean a man does not have to have an execuse to marry. If he fails to be just it is his own problem not the system.

I mean we can not blame the company's by law for the failure of employees to abide by it, can we?

Yes it was legalized in such situation but made to serve as means for so many reasons our limited understanding can not graps. This is Allah's Wisdom brother.

Although I saw in many cases that Allah Is The All Wise and polygyny is a must.

Alhamdulelah for Islam.

<a></a>20576[/snapback]

Ok sister I agree with your great input, and I accept that in the past they other women for different reasons not to care for the orphans

however to marry a woman because she was related to someone that I cared for and loved, does not make any sense to me, marriage is more than that sister, also not because they were the Sahaba it means they are sinless, or they understood the Quran perfectly, in fact all the hadith combined will hardly cover half of the Quran, for example in Sahih Bukhari there is only hadiths to explain 50 verses only from the 286 verses of sura no 2, i.e. there is 236 verses in sura 2 that have no hadith to expalin it whatsoever, so if we really need that sahaba and hadith to explain the verses to us, what we should do with the many verses that have no hadith to expalin?

it is all about Igtihad, and the Igtihad is based on common sense, not based on discrimination between the sexes

but my point is "regardless what is the right opinion regarding polygamy in Islam", most muslims do not understand it and this is very confusing and affecting muslim socities bad, I will prove this later by showing the other opinions

in fact your opinion is another new one to the above 5, however your opinion have a lot of substance and merit, but when you hear the other opnions (one from a mufti) I'm sure you will be surprised

and finally, i do not claim that the abnove explanation is the right one, rather it has the highest morals and common sense in all opinions, The opnion above is also the most propabale if you consider the warning to be fair to all wives as well the info that we can not be fair between women even if that what was our desire, THEN WE SHOULD MARRY ONE ONLY

also I would love to hear your opinion regarding the word (Ta'Oloo) at the end of verse 4:3 please

I will add the rest of the opinions bit by bit later (been very busy lately)

Take care sister

AhmedBahgat · 09-12-2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:Polygamy is demeaning to women. However, far be it from me to cast judgement on the sexual relations between consenting adults. If a woman does not mind sharing her husband with 3 other women (or more), fine by me. Similarly, if a husband does not mind sharing his wife with other men, so be it. But lets be honest about it, this is about husbands getting bored with their aging wives looking for a bit of fresh meat for the bedroom. In a lot of cases I understand that the aging wife goes along with it for respite from brutish husbands.

<a></a>20581[/snapback]

lol especially the part about sharing the wife

cheers

AhmedBahgat · 09-12-2005, 11:00 PM

nothing mate just the bit about sharing the wife, because I think no man can do this, while I understand it happens but again not with real men

cheers

AhmedBahgat · 09-12-2005, 11:55 PM

lol, no mate, i meant morally men, not imaginary men, I'm not surprised bro, i know it happens a lot, i live in australia and i watch jerry springer every day

cheers

***Muslimah*** · 09-13-2005, 05:09 PM

Bismillah

Brother Ahmed, BTW I dont think u agree with John's view -specially being a non Muslim - about polygyny specially when he calls it demeaning.

Nothing can be called demeaning as long as Allah Legalized it.

Before I continue, I need to clarify that I am doing this in the name of Allah and onlyAllah Insh a Allah trying to be as sincere as possible. Not to make a presence or for the sake of argument.

Brother Ahmed what is even more important is that - and I fully unerstand where u r coming from being an Egyptian - some of the Muslims got so much affected with Christian influence and thus see polygyny as stigma. I mean the society looks down to a man who goes for it.

Brother, when Omar wanted to strengthen his relation with the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam, he was not wrong. Remember brother, Omar was the one whose opinion agreed with Quran revelation in about 3 occaisons.

Now back to the topic. If we as muslims became so much affected with Western culture and feel bad about certain things, then we are in major trouble.

If we started trying to look why Allah Legalized this or that just because we feel degraded in front of the western flood, then we are even in more major trouble.

I guess u never questioned yourself why Allah Commanded us to bow and prostrate in Salah. But just because polygyny is an aspect in Islam that receives much criticism you are trying to dig out verification. The problem is that when Allah Makes something lawful, Allah Does this taking in consideration all types of Allah's own creation which no one knows it better than Allah. Measuring by your own viewpoint, which is no matter how insightful you are is not a proper criteria compared to Allah's Wisdom.

Only Allah Knows why any man goes for polygyny and if he can handle it fine if not it is his own problem. There are men who are not equipped for it. I saw that.

But on the other hand there are others who are able to do it just because there will be women who need this.

I prefer not to reply to a non Muslim's opinion calling an aspect of Islam demeaning in the usual manner. Like making comparison with the status of Western women.

***Muslimah*** · 09-13-2005, 07:32 PM

Bismillah

John that u for taking the time and making this analyzed reply, however, if u noticed it was all for brother Ahmed. Thus, when I was talking about prayer, it was for him to think and compare.

And I will not still compare, what freedom u r talking about when women in the West are mostly made as sex objects. I mean look at commercials, they use nothing but women's body and feminie influence what a demeaning status.

***Muslimah*** · 09-13-2005, 07:54 PM

Bismillah

O john u really made me smile now [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

Ok u go ahead and start the thread, I d like very much to talk about this.

Waiting for this infamous thread

umm Zachariah · 09-13-2005, 08:09 PM

Bismillah

John

Quote:Many women who all of a sudden find themselves in a polygamous marriage find it demeaning. So it is not just me who says it is demeaning.

WHAT women are you talking about? Muslim women should be aware of that polygamy is allowed in Islam, so it cannot be of any bigger surprise to us, so it must be some other women you are talking about?

Quote:Well, some of us just don't believe what is in scripture. But again, I am neither for nor against polygamy providing it is between consenting adults.

Well John coming from you, WHO would be surprised? [img]style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img] We ARE already well aware of that you do not believe in the Qur'an nor Allah SWT nor His Prophet saws, so you bring forth OLD news!

I do think we have discussed this matter forth and back many times already, so just say YOU don't understand this issue, fair enough, but do NOT push it to saying it is hypocrasy that only men can marry more than one, THAT is going too far. Just try to accept that we Muslims do not see it that way and it is we who live by it. And also keep in mind that we live by it in a legalized way, and others live by it an unlegalized way, THAT is the only difference.

Quote:Uh huh. The status of western woman who enjoy freedom of choice something not allowed in the muslim world today.

One thing that I do dislike A LOT, is this generalzation of us and also where we live 'in the muslim world'. It is truly amazing how ANYONE can make such a statement and gain attention, since it is so far fetched. Since I KNOW you cannot possible know every Muslim that lives on this planet and even less every one of us that lives in 'the muslim world today'. So the remark should not be taken in consideration.

WHAT is 'freedom of choice', besides the common things we have, the right to choose our husband/wife, where to live, where to work, what to wear and more that are basic to most people. THAT basic freedom of choice can easily change, for anyone of us, and suddenly. Something can come in our way that changes that, and suddenly, like lately what happened in New Orleans.

Do freedom of choice to you mean that you have no obligations? That you have no duties to attend to? No musts? Or what?

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