Another Question From Your New Muslim Brother

[Anyabwile]

I wonder why u r calling the replies on the board rigid and depressing? is it because it didnt conform to your findings? Sobhan Allah, sorry for this but this is illogic. Didnt u see that one of the Ayahs is even quoted wrongly? is this rigid and depressing?
Is it because u found out that items u brought are not correct? except for the raisin head hadeeth which my sisters already explained and Insh aAllah I have more to say about?


If u r not satistisifed with the replies or does not make sense to u I will simply quote u on another thread agreeing with Dan for being frustrated with members who dont understand the point and insist on their position.

Theres no need to be rude and sarcastic, all you need to do is read back on my posts to see how much i love Islam and have given everything up for it. But being Muslim doesnt mean i become a Robot, if something isn't right then im gonna say, not stand blank faced and tell myself. "It doesnt make sence because Allah made it that way, we cannot comprehend"


I don't appreciate this kind of talk at all.

u I will simply quote u on another thread agreeing with Dan for being frustrated with members who dont understand the point and insist on their position.

You shouldnt turn on me with Sarcasm simply because i'm questioning my religion. Thats a bad example sister. You should calm down and take some tips from Dan in particular. That kind brother is helping me with Honesty and genuine concern in PM's and i wish him Allah SWT blessings for doing so.


I say rigid and depressing because to be brainwashed to the point of not actually seeing that calling a black person a raisin head isn't offensive. It's dazzles me, honestly it does. The reason the raisin head comment is deleted from Islamic books is because people see it as offensive. I am a Muslim i live for Allah SWT only, but Allah doesnt want me to be stupid. If someone called me a raisin head at work, they would be prosecuted for racism.


Anyway this was just one Minor concern i had but i am certainly not going to bring them to the forum if i'm going to get the kind of rudeness below.

Didnt u see that one of the Ayahs is even quoted wrongly? is this rigid and depressing? Is it because u found out that items u brought are not correct?

Sister i cannot belive someone as wise and intelligent such as yourself whos guided me in Islam like a mother almost could write something so stupid. Why would i want the Hadiths about Satan being a Black man to be right? I am black Muslim remember, so will my daughter be Insha Allah and so will my future children be. Why would i want the Hadith to be true? That doesnt make sense does it. That was a strange thing to say.


If the hadith i bought are incorrect or forged then for goodness sake i am glad, i just dont understand why u think i'd want them to be True. Just because i'm asking questions doesnt mean i no longer love my Prophet PBUH and Islam. May Dan, Intuition and the others helping me with my concerns continue to do so in these distressing times for me. Jazakallahu

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


seems u have one of those conflicts with regarding my style of writing, Anyah calm down.


U took every word I said as sarcasm, why? I dont know, I am still like a mother to u, and out of being a mother, I have the right to express my surprise that u didnt notice the Ayahs being quoted wrongly.


As a mother I have the right to be surprised that u take the answers that refute the points as rigid. And Alhamdulelah I am never sarcastic u know better than that simply because I take people in consideration even if I am blamed for being tooooo patient.


may Allah Reward Dan much


I will leave it here.


Allah Knows my intention and that is all I care about

[Anyabwile]

Bismillah,
Assalamu aleikum,


Brother Anya, may time work things out for you inshaAllah.


The only thing for now I will comment is, since you wrote ''I'll kindly ignore the person who implied being called a Raisin head was a compliment because they are smooth or something. Sigh...banging my head against a wall.''


I suppose you mean me since I am the one trying to describe how I understand the shape of a raisin, and I did already clerify that I do not see the connection between black people and raisains, I asked YOU more or less how you comprehend this connection, but you did not notice this question or you choose not to answer it, Allah Oalem.


But just again to clarify what I wrote when you now choose to ignore me, it is truly up to you brother, I will still be here as your sister and will stay by your side and try to do what I can to help you inshaAllah, ''A raisin is not equaly round and smooth, it is dent (if that is the right word). And furthermore, where I live, I have only seen raisins in a very light yellow or golden color...'' I was looking for the logical connection between black and raisin, since my common sense tells me there are none.


Wasalam umm Z

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I may need to apoligise here, if raisins are different colours in other countrys and they may well be, i've learned some are red. Then i can see ur point Intuition, when u ask what the connection is.


But Raisins in this country are Black, Dry and wrinkled. Always have been. It's like someone calling me a Coal Head. A coal is Black, but you can still see that it's offensive right? Maybe you genuinely dont want to see it. If so that's your choice. I would rather Black brothers i know be Muslims rather than Kaffir. Some i know would see the comment and be like "hmm maybe the Prophet didnt actually say that" or say something like "its not that offensive really" then fine.


There are Black people i know where if they were called a N*gger at work wouldnt say anything and laugh at it. Thats fine, to me though im different, i wont accept it. So i don't say all Black people have to think the same, i'm just from a different school of thought. Where no one should have to hear crude comments about their race, no matter what their colour.


However this is one concern of many. I just wanted to confirm if it was true or not as no one told me the first time around when i asked as a new Muslim. Now i know it is, this is where i can advance with my Islam and make my own choices. Thank you for the constructive debate those who were genuinely trying to help.


Jazakallahu

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


One more point,


I really apologize may Allah Forgive me if u took any of my comments as sarcasm.


Allah Say what means (dont have time to look for the translation)


People should not make fun of other people lest they are better than them, or women from women lest they are better than them


And may Allah Help u and Support u to gain inner satisfaction and contempt.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Assalamu aleikum,


Brother Anya, you quote what I wrote and call me Intution, but I still assume you refer to my writing [img]style_emoticons/default/huh.gif[/img]


Let me tell you WHY I do not understand the 'connection' between raisins and black people. I too ask questions, just like you do [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] And it is still unanswered so I have not left it behind me.


And since I DO NOT UNDERSTAND this I ask YOU since you seem to see a connection between these words.


I see what you mean with 'coal' but to my knowledge it cannot be any other color than black, I may be wrong of course. So still, therefore I do not understand the 'one color black raisin' since they are not only one color. I am sorry for repeating myself but perhaps we can clarify this now and then have a possiblity to continue?


So brother believe me I am like a BIG ?sign [img]style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img][img]style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img][img]style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif[/img] about you telling me I do not see it offensive, when I read the ahadith and do not see it pointing to black people. And it has nothing to do with you thinking that it is something I WANT to believe, it is how I UNDERSTAND the ahadith. And I read it without anyone trying to explain it for me. I just read it and think what it tells me.


Brother, have you thought about what you say, 'that no one did told you about this when being a new Muslim' racism I suppose you mean, that is is beacuse we see that there is no racism in Islam? Are you now telling me, I have been a Muslimah for 8 years alhamdulillah, that one thing that I did find so liberating when embracing Islam, was that it is without racism. That was one thing that was so obvious to me in the Message. And now you are telling me I am totally wrong?


Wasalam umm Z

[NaSra]

Asalamalaikum


Anya


I actually should've made this comment awhile ago but I got caught up with something. The raisins we have here are also very dark, some are very very dark. Some are even black. It was actually new to me that there are yellow raisins as Ummzachariah said. MashaAllah very interesting [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img].


Brother

if something isn't right then im gonna say, not stand blank faced and tell myself.

I think thats a nice quality to have. You should continue asking, subhanaALlah how on earth can anybody learn anything without asking? Ask, ask, ask, until you learn. You of all people should ask, because subhanaAllah I've been a muslim my whole life and I am still learning, let alone a new muslim who has just accepted Islam. I'm not saying that new muslims have less knowledge than born muslims because mashaAllah alot of the times they teach me a lot I didn't even know.

when I read the ahadith and do not see it pointing to black people.

Ummzachariah it does point to black people though, because ethiopians are black and the prophet said " Follow your leader even if he is an ethiopian with a raisin haead". If it was said an Arab with a raisin head maybe that would've been different. The fact that it points to black people doesn't have to insulting it's actually an honour. Putting aside the reason for the hadith which we have already discussed but alhamdulilah it's very clear that ethiopians who are neighbours of somalians are black.


For what it's worth let me say that, the hadith is a message to all people. ALL people, not only for green people, or yellow people, but all insha'Allah. That we should not discriminate our leaders if they do happen to be different in race/nationality or even physical appearance. But predominate in this case , the prophet was addressing people of arabia who were prejudiced against BiLaL to respect their fellow muslims even if they are black. The Prophet (saw) was trying to teach people that there is no room for racism in Islam.


Insha'Allah the muslim world will learn to fight racism as much as our beloved prophet (PBUH) taught us to.


Masalamaaaa

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom brothers and sisters


Anya apart from being rude and sarcastic, I need u to tell me exactly where u got the material from. As I said I double checked the link u gave and it totally came up with different text as I posted it above.


So before we continue on the other points. Now Alhamdulelah 1, 2 and 5 are covered Insh a Allah we will continue on the rest to further explain them.


Pls do give me the links u got the material from.


Thanks.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


As salam alykom


To add on my dear sister Intuition’s thorough reply, we all know that the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam had the authority to legislate by virtue of the Ayah:


“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.” (Quran 33:36)


To this effect he was actually establishing a very important rule, not only to be observed then, but till the day after as in any other Divine rule. Thus he had to give a thorough and detailed description, using the tools of eloquence of which the Arabic language is rich, to a potential leader who may be assigned at any give time. To give the description, he was aiming to convey to them, that they might be headed by an Ethiopian who has a head like raisin in terms of being dented that is a description of the hair.


BTW Intuition here in Egypt I also only saw clear yellow coloured raisins never seen the black ones.


In this hadeeth, he used tools of eloquence of which the Arabic language is rich as we may say her eyes are as black as the night; the horse is as fast as lightening. The Messenger had to leave no point of making sure that when a black man is assigned as a leader they must follow, even if he looks so and so.


He wanted to make sure they totally get rid of the racist part in them, that even applied on him personally. As Quran explained:" And they say: "Why is not this Qur'an sent down to some great man of the two towns (Makkah and Ta'if)?" (Quran 43:31). Racism, arrogance and classist attitude were so much inherent at that time.


Actually as always, the situation occurred later during the time of opening Egypt. When Amr Ibn El`as asked Omar for help, he sent him an army of 4000 men leaded by 4 men whom he described as each man = 1000. Of them was O`bada Ibn Essamet, very dark black man who was also chosen by the army members to lead the delegation to talk to Moqwaqas chief of the Egyptian Copts at the time. When they attended at Moqwaqas presence, he said O I am scared of this dark man take him away from me. Egyptians were astonished asking the Muslims how can they accept the leadership of such a black man.


They said this is Islam our Messenger commanded us to obey and accept leadership of chief regardless of color or race.


They even said he is our speaker we will not accept anyone else to conduct the negotiations. And the amazing conversation went on, which is not our core of interest here. I am trying to bring the relevant aspects of the situation.


To bring this point more into focus, the Messenger told ahadeeth related to the signs of the Hour. In one of them he gave full description of women having a certain hair style as follows: under the authority of Abdullah Ibn Omar who said I heard RasullAllah salla Allah a`alyhee wa sallam say: By the end of time, there will be men among my Ummah who ride over saddles but only look like men (trying to say they are not acting like real men), they get off by the gates of masjeds, their women are dressed but naked, on their heads (referring to the hair style) like camel humps, curse them for they are cursed. If there will be an Ummah that succeeds you, your women would have served their women just as women of the preceding Ummahs served you”.


Because both hadeeth involved crucial matters such as obedience of chief and cursing of a certain group. Full detailed description was given.


In this hadeeth, there is a very important rule which is the application of cursing. Whom to curse? That is why Now if u look at the type of woman who according to hadeeth must be cursed, u will find that the description is as follows:


1. Men who are semi men, riding over saddles and get off by the gate of masjed. It is an indication that they dont get in to pray.


2. Women who are related to this type of men in any way will be:


a. Dressed up but naked.


b. Using a hair style that takes the hair up in a high bun similar to camel hump.


Therefore, the description is precise making it a certain category of people.


If any of the above conditions is absent, then the woman does not deserve the curse.


But all conditions must be present including the type of men they are related to in order to be the eligible category for cursing. In addition that they must be seen together.


Just look at the precision of the talk.


The Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam had to close the gap by giving the hair description of a potential chief. Supposed the hair description was not included, this would leave the door opened for people not to obey except a leader with straight hair.


At the end I agree with Intuition on the importance of asking, we live our lives to learn and can never do without asking.


That is why even we even give much space to non Muslims to ask and keep patient even when they repeat their questions.


wallah A`lam. whatever is correct is from Allah and whatever is wrong is from me and Shaytan.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


3. Tabari II:21 “Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham’s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem’s, the latter would enslave them.”



Before even I go to check the authenticity of this statement for I still wait for Anya to give me the link. Just by looking at the statement, it does not agree with reality.


Arabs are not the handsome ones with beautiful hair. majority of Arabs have curly hair. Americans and Europeans are the ones who fit this description.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


As salam alykom brothers and sisters


Alhamdulelah Who Guided us for this and it was not for Him we wouldnt have been guided. Alhamdulelah, praise be to Allah abundant praise, praise that is adequate to His Majesty and Glory:


I spent sometime today searching on the point #3 raised by our brother Anyah.


Alhamdulelah with Allah's Close Guidance and Support I knew that it is related to the tafseer of Quran 11:38


Then I checked Tabarai, and checked more resources in Arabic in order to make sure that the contents are authenticated.


As for the Tabari tafseer I consulted:


www.qurancomplex.com


And also consulted


http://www.khayma.com/qsesalanbia/anb/No...safena.htm


Both Mash a Allah are well established credible Arabic sites


The findings are as follows:


The second page included the following translation of the hadeeth:


"Narrated Imam Ahmed under the Authority of Samrah that the Messenger Salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam said: Sam (Shem) is the father of the Arabs, Ham is the father of the Ethiopeans, and Yafeth (Japheth) is the father of the Romans" (reported by Termidhi)


Narrated under the authority of Said Ibn Mosaiab that the Messenger Salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam said:"Nuh begot three Shem, Japheth and Ham. Each of the three children begot three, Shem begot Arabs, Persians and the Romans, Japheth begot Turks, Cicilians, Yajouj and Majouj and Ham begot Copts, Sudanese and Barbarians"


As clearly seen none of the two narrations contain any referrence to a dua made by Nuh against his own children, or a dua for any of the children to enslave the others. La hawla wala qowata ila billah. And the referrence is not even made thru a hadeeth.


As for the Tabari tafseer, it only contained a referrence to the 3 children with no indication of who is beautiful or who is not. Just as explanation on who came on board the boat with Nuh as himself, his wife and 3 children.


for those who can read Arabic to double check if anyone doubts:


http://www.qurancomplex.com/Quran/tafseer/...b&nAya=43#11_43


http://www.khayma.com/qsesalanbia/anb/No...safena.htm


Alhamdulelah who Guided us for this and if it was not for Him we would have not been guided.


May Allah Enlighten our hearts, insight, way and keep us on the correct path ameen