Allah's Description Of Those Who Ascribe A Son

[ronniv93]

such as? put it here, so we can prove how the Qur'an never contradicted to each other.

Well, see, it's not quite that simple.


First of all, if you'll notice from my post, I didn't say that I'm trying to prove contradictions in the Quran. It seems that people keep trying to "limit" me to this 1 goal, but that's not it at all.


When I say things are contradictory, that does NOT simply mean the Quran contradicting itself. That could mean the Quran contradicts earlier revelations yet claims to be essentially the same message or from the same God. It could mean that there are contradictions between Quranic teachings and Hadith; it could mean that there are contradictions between the Quran and history or archaeology, it could be all of these or more.


Secondly, you brought out only this 1 item of <i>contradictions</i> while leaving out the rest of what I said. Some things simply aren't clear, don't make sense, etc.


The last thing is, I can't simply sit down and write a couple of lines of text explaining all the unexplained/unanswered questions about Islam (which, of course, is more than Quran alone). I would probably have to write a book to contain it all.


That's why, as questions emerge or take the forefront in my mind, I'll usually just start a thread or make a post with that question.


What's been happening is that with 1 seemingly simple question, it takes around 20 posts just to even get started with getting answers. People sometimes assume what I'm saying and thus end up off-track in providing a response; or there are links to other sites posted that I have to go read, then come back with a response; sometimes I have to provide background information on what I already know so that we can move beyond that, etc., etc.


So, you see, if it takes all of that JUST to get started with ONE question, then there's no way that I can list out ALL of them at once. We'd have total chaos around here. :-)

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


I have to pick something out from what you wrote, so I choose this,


''When I say things are contradictory, that does NOT simply mean the Quran contradicting itself. That could mean the Quran contradicts earlier revelations yet claims to be essentially the same message or from the same God. It could mean that there are contradictions between Quranic teachings and Hadith; it could mean that there are contradictions between the Quran and history or archaeology, it could be all of these or more.''


I just wonder, if you have done all this research, I understand that you must have put a LOT of time and effort into this, since what you count up takes time to go through: reading the Qur'an, and I assume the tafsir to be able to fully understand the Words of Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, all the ahadith (I have not been able yet to read them all, and I have been a Muslimah now for some years) comparing to earlier scriptures, digging into history - WHY?


Let's say I am curious, since to me this kind of effort means two things, you are doing all this because you are truly interested in finding out the truth about Islam, to be able to embrace Islam OR you do it for some other reason.


I think doing this kind of deep digging ONLY out of curiosity, is not reasonable. The work and time it takes, well it does not make any sense to me.


Any ideas?

[ronniv93]

Excellent point. You're right. To do all of this out of PURE curiosity would be a strange thing, indeed!


Earlier on, when I started taking this study more seriously, I really thought to myself, "What if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong and they're right? What if my whole life (of following Christianity) is based upon a lie? What if, when I die, I am held accountable before God for not believing in the final revelation that came through Muhammad?"


So, I took it REALLY REALLY seriously.


Thus, I started reading and reading as much material as I could get my hands on. I have 3 different translations of the Quran, I've done study into which one's are considered better translations. I even bought a book called "The 130 Evident Miracles of the Quran". I was referred to writings of Jamal Badawi and Ahmed Deedat, quite a lot. I studied the various sects of Islam, understanding the differences between Sunni and Shia and Sufi, the Wahabis, Ahmadiyyah, etc., etc. Even signed up for some online Arabic courses so I could learn to read and write it.


ALL of this, I did, looking for the truth. Cause if Islam was the truth, I was going to go at it 150%.


Whenever I would tell Muslims the reasons why I didn't believe or explained to them things that didn't quite fit together, I was always told, "You don't know enough. You are like a babe that's still learning. You have to know Arabic; you must study tafsir. Read this book, it will explain everything to you. Read that article; listen to this lecture online. Read "The Sealed Nectar". You don't understand the science of hadith, therefore you can't speak on it."


ALL OF THIS RESEARCH was mainly because people kept telling me that I just hadn't read enough yet. Thus, I thought, if I just do all these things people are telling me to, then maybe I'll get what they get.... see what they see in Islam.


<b>In summary, all of this, initially, was not done out of curiosity's sake alone.</b>


The more I researched, the more problems and holes I found, and the stronger I became in my own faith as a Christian, to be honest.


<b>So, now... I still have some lingering questions and sheer curiosity of how Muslims deal with some of the issues that cause me to question and/or challenge Islamic beliefs.</b> And with the waning "search for truth in Islam", I also put a lot less time into it than I did before. Believe it or not, I ask fewer questions now than I did in the "early days".


I am almost to the point where I feel as though I've heard it all. . . . heard all the best arguments and explanations for this and that. When I feel that I've TRULY explored Islam as much as possible in order to be able to make a decision, I may stop posting at all. I simply don't want to "miss" anything just because I didn't ask the right question or the right person.


<b>I DO enjoy the dialogue and exchange of knowledge and information. I like talking to people who aren't just like me or who don't believe as I do. That's all learning and understanding other people</b>. So, that's part of it, too.

[ronniv93]

Let me add one more point of explanation.


These questions that I ask are questions that I have in my mind that I simply cannot reconcile. Apparently, Muslims must NOT have the same issues that I do, or else how could they believe IN Islam? Thus, I ask these questions trying to figure out what the answer is (or might be).


One simple example is how so many Muslims challenge Christians with a statement like, "You all don't even have the original Bible anymore; how can you know what was there?"


But then, I think.... "Well, neither do Muslims have the original Quran. They have COPIES of the original, same as us." How can something be demanded of us that they can't produce themselves. The Quran is not as old as the OT or NT, yet they can't produce an original either.


Another example is that many introductory articles/books about Islam talk about how it is the "pure religion" or the only "reasonable, rational religion there is" with no myths or superstitions... But then I read that Muslims believe in the "evil eye" and that there are special prayers you must say to avoid the effects of it, or that black dogs are devils, and some Muslims even wear charms of sort to ward off evil. These practices all contradict the idea that there are no myths/supersitions in Islam. This is an example of what I mean when I say <b>contradictions</b>.


And <b>PLEASE</b> everyone, I brought this up only to clarify myself a bit more; I am IN NO WAY INTERESTED in discussing the authenticity of the Bible.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace ronniv


I must say I like this post of yours although my sister Umm asked u why u still ask, well to me I dont mind u asking since the question is not answered. I learnt that we have to answer regardless of the objective of the poster.


ronniv I will try to avoid the word that pushes your button didnt understand.


ronniv I am not also intending to discuss the bible as u may have noticed I am the least one who does this. The whole problem is that u bring up a point that is not relevant. when we say we have an original book we dont say that we have a book signed by Allah, but as we told u numerous times Allah protected it, protected the revelation, not that Allah Could not do the same for the previous books.


When Allah Say in Quran that it contains what the previous books had, Allah Is refering to the books before mankind tampered with it and changed it.


ronniv yes we have a copy but a copy of what was exactly revealed by Allah. If u can not reconcile with this fact it is because u r scared to believe. But we are not pushing u.


We explained to u that every word in any Quran book today is the same as revealed to the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam 1400 years ago.


we told u that Quran contained admonition to the Messenger, contained a surah forecasting and stating that Abu Lahab is destined to hell and it was so easy for him to go out and declare Islam that would have actually destroyed the message then. But he didnt.


ronniv it is not us who how we can be ok with this, u dont want to be ok or afraid to be ok.


So it is not that your questions were not answered, they were but u dont want to see. No superiority complex or the like.


As for the evil eye, this is not myth, there is a whole sura explaining about it, in fact what made the jews reject taking the faith is that they envied Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Talking about eny, actually Ibless (satan) envied Adam for his position and the fact that Allah Commanded the angles to prostrate to him.


If any Muslim wears a charm to ward off evil eye then he/she committed a major sin. Being a Muslim does not mean being sinless. People commit sins u know.


Therefore there is no contradiction. Like if u violate traffic laws does this mean that the laws have contraditiction???


Ok I am trying to be brief, what else let us see


ronniv I will give u a sincere advice, because as I felt u r just too scared to believe. The points are answered yet u dont want to see it.


listen do as Ibraheem did, ask Allah for guidance, but when u invoke upon Allah dont call Jesus, just talk to Allah, no names......


that is all may Allah really really really help u in your endeavor.

[lifutushi]

One simple example is how so many Muslims challenge Christians with a statement like, "You all don't even have the original Bible anymore; how can you know what was there?"
But then, I think.... "Well, neither do Muslims have the original Quran. They have COPIES of the original, same as us." How can something be demanded of us that they can't produce themselves. The Quran is not as old as the OT or NT, yet they can't produce an original either.

we have the exact copy of Al-Qur'an, in the exact same language, exact words (each and every of them), exact way to read it and of course exact meaning. we don't have hundreds of versions of Al-Qur'an, which are different from each other, just only ONE VERSION OF AL-QUR'AN, the one revealed 1400yrs ago.

Another example is that many introductory articles/books about Islam talk about how it is the "pure religion" or the only "reasonable, rational religion there is" with no myths or superstitions... But then I read that Muslims believe in the "evil eye" and that there are special prayers you must say to avoid the effects of it, or that black dogs are devils, and some Muslims even wear charms of sort to ward off evil. These practices all contradict the idea that there are no myths/supersitions in Islam. This is an example of what I mean when I say contradictions.

show me where in the Qur'an mentioning about these superficial things? when you saw some muslims wearing charms, that doesn't mean that they're following Islamic teaching, charms are forbidden in Islam.

And PLEASE everyone, I brought this up only to clarify myself a bit more; I am IN NO WAY INTERESTED in discussing the authenticity of the Bible.

so do i, i'm only interested in Al-Qur'an, that's why i'm asking you to list the contradictions in Al-Qur'an. if you can't or don't want to, it's better if you never mention about it.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Assalamu aleikum,


Sister Muslimah, you are right , we answer questions for whatever reason, but let me just say, maybe I said it already, I am just curious to know why some questions are repeated


One point Ronniv that caught my eye, I see brother Lifutushi has already been into it, but I would also have a go if you don't mind?


''One simple example is how so many Muslims challenge Christians with a statement like, "You all don't even have the original Bible anymore; how can you know what was there?"


But then, I think.... "Well, neither do Muslims have the original Quran. They have COPIES of the original, same as us." How can something be demanded of us that they can't produce themselves. The Quran is not as old as the OT or NT, yet they can't produce an original either.''


Now if you try to look at this objectively, isn't that a fair question? There is not almost one Christian today that say that the Bible is the 100 percent words of God. So a very LOGICAL question drawn from this knowledge is, 'then how do they know what is what?' 'What IS revealed by God and what is not?' These kind of questions is questions of doubt, questions that cannot make belief complete.


And then you use the same 'argument' about the Qur'an - put it too in the same weak position, and that is very things go very wrong. That you could really call a 'contradiction'. You will not hear a sincere Muslim say about the Qur'an what you hear a Christian say about the Bible, since there is not doubts whatsover that the Qur'an IS the 100 percent revealed Words of Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.


This is a VERY big difference. To KNOW that you have access to the 100 procent true revealed words of Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala and to know you have not. It is like two different topics.


So your last sentense here is about 'they cannot produce...' we are not trying to produce anything, since we have the unaltered revelation in our hands. Why should we try to destroy anything? The word of man cannot be better than the Word of Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. This knowledge is buried deep, deep down in the mind and heart of the true Muslim believer.


And here is your big barrier, as I understand it from what you write, and that is that if you do not understand the genuiness of the revelation and the compilation of the Qur'an, you will always have the most important part of Islamic knowledge missing. And that is one of the most crucial part to have knowledge about, to be able to gain true knowledge and then true faith.

[ronniv93]

so do i, i'm only interested in Al-Qur'an, that's why i'm asking you to list the contradictions in Al-Qur'an. if you can't or don't want to, it's better if you never mention about it.

lifutushi, it would be helpful if you stop trying to limit me to trying to prove contradictions in the Quran. I have already said this in this VERY thread. Please don't try to put me into a box by saying that the onl thing I'm here to do is prove the Quran is contradictory of itself.


Actually, it's doubtful that I've spent much time on that issue at all, <b>IF</b> at all.


Goodness! There is more to asking questions about Islam than trying to prove contradictions in your book. That's actually "BABY" stuff to me; Just as there are sites out there trying to prove contradictions in the Bible, there are plenty of sources doing the same for the Quran. If I want that kind of stuff, I'll go there, not here. <b>I AM SOOOOO OVER THIS MINUTE, LITTLE POINT</b>/I]!!!!


Frankly, whether there were or weren't contradictions... IT WOULDN'T PROVE ANYTHING ANYWAY. It's rather SIMPLISTIC for a single person communicating a message to NOT contradict himself, so if there AREN'T contradictory/conflictory statements in the Quran, so what? Who cares? What would that prove? To me... nothing. So WHY would I care about this issue anyway???


Look, put it this way.... Just assume that 99.9% of the time, ronni is <b>NOT TRYING TO PROVE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QURAN</b>. That's really a BORING effort to me.


So, PLEASE stop boxing me into that. Reread my last few posts to understand my points.


If you still think, when I post, that that's my goal, then please don't even respond to anything I say; it would be a waste of time for you to respond, because you'll still be thinking that's my goal, and thus any response you offer would probably be WAY off base.

[ronniv93]

There is not almost one Christian today that say that the Bible is the 100 percent words of God. So a very LOGICAL question drawn from this knowledge is, 'then how do they know what is what?'

I'm not sure that you can actually produce a statistic which proves this statement. Almost no Christians believe this?? I would find that very difficult to believe. I mean, did someone conduct a survey of the majority of the Christians in every country, nation and tribe on earth, getting a representative sample, and thus come to this conclusion?


I seriously doubt it.


And any Christian who does not believe the Bible is the Word of God, is frankly... not a Christian. I would actually consider them in danger of not even making it to heaven if their beliefs are faulty like that... of course, it's not for me to judge.


Every Christian that I KNOW, whether here locally, or brothers and sisters around the world believe and know that we hold God's revealed words in our hands. What *SOME* people think is of no consequence to me. Just as the fact that there are Muslims out there who are "liberal" or "progressive", as they call themselves, is of no consequence to you.


Umm_Zachariah, I actually appreciate the Muslim scholars and teachers out there who have "challenged" the Bible and make claims against it's originality, accuracy, etc. <b>These challenges against the Bible have actually increased my knowledge about the Book and with this knowledge, I have learned how many LIES are perpetrated against the Bible. Now, knowing much more about my own Book than I did before, my faith in it has GREATLY increased.</b>


I now know about all the discoveries in archaeology, history, science, prophecy, textual history of the Bible.... and it's actually proven the Bible even more strongly to me than ever before. I took time to study out each of the so-called "challenges" but unlike most Muslims, I didn't stop there. I looked for possible answers and FOUND THEM.


<b>SO LIKEWISE,</b> when I read about challenges against the Quran or hadith or history of Islam.... I looked at <b>BOTH</b> sides of the story. I know where people embellish or even lie (knowingly or unknowingly) about Islam... I know where they don't lie about it.


To any and everyone.... you don't have to bother trying to say anything negative about the Bible, it's authenticity, this "Christian" or that... all of that will have no effect upon me, because I've heard it all before and studied it all before.


And like I said, my faith has grown in what I believe (although, my faith was already strong just based upon the Word of God showing itself true in my own life and the lives of others around me). But now, I have more KNOWLEDGE to add to that faith.


Anytime something is said against the Bible, my faith is only renewed, so it's probably better for you to say nothing against it at all.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Ronniv, I was referring to works and studies that has been written about the issue, and they are not written by Muslim scholars, also discussions with Christians I have had, some very knowable about Christianity due to the study they have done themselves. So even if you deny the fact that there are Christians that do not agree with you, there are still Christians that, just like you, also calls themselves true believers, that believe that the Bible is not 100 percent the words of God, they are out there too. I trust in their belief as well as yours, but these beliefs are contradictory. Truly it is not a problem of mine, since I am just a spectator to this. But I also understand this viewpoint, of not being 100 percent..., since I have too read a little bit, and to ME it does make sense that all in there is not the words of God. It makes sense.


I am just writing this that to show that there are others too, that do not agree with you, and they do not feel any lesser believers than you do. You can point fingers at each others if you like, ''you are not a true believer...'' but finally it is all up to Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. HE will be the Judge, as you rightly pointed out.


I was more up to pointing out that you have not found out about the origins of the Qur'an since that is the issue that has been focused on for some time. But you took another turn and now state your strong belief in the Bible. Well then the same question is also still unanswered - I repeat it again


''And here is your big barrier, as I understand it from what you write, and that is that if you do not understand the genuiness of the revelation and the compilation of the Qur'an, you will always have the most important part of Islamic knowledge missing. And that is one of the most crucial part to have knowledge about, to be able to gain true knowledge and then true faith.''


And if you cannot solve this issue, your mind will always tell you that you are on the right way where you are now. And you have reached so far, done so much search to come this far, your hand is like holding on the door handle. But it is Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala that opens and closes doors, and He is the only one that knows if we will go forward, backwards och simply stay where we are.


Just some finishing words, to try to stay on topic: Isa, alaihi salaam, is not the son of Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala (astaghfirullah) in whatever form that may be, he is the son of Mary.


''O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
'' The Qur'an 4:171


The Words of Allah, Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala