Transmission Of The Qur'anic Revelation

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Hi Ronniv,


<i>''I must admit that I find it difficult to grasp or believe the concept that Muhammad spoke the ENTIRE Quran, in bits and pieces''</i>


''And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. ''
The Qur'an 2:4






''And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.'' The Qur'an 2:41


''Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe''
The Qur'an 2:97






''The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.'' The Qur'an 2:146


But also,


''And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account.''
The Qur'an 3:199


Only Allah, SWT knows which path all of us will take, included you Ronniv.


A) To my humble knowledge, it was due to that they start to differ among one another, that one recitation was superior to another. And since Islam is about equality, the idea of being superior, in what ever it may be, is to be avoided.


No what Uthman destroyed was the PRIVATE copies that different people had and had began to make NOTES in. Like you are reading a book and there may be some words that you don't fully understand, then you take your dictionary and make a note of the word and you write some other word to understand the first one better. And when doing like that in the Qur'an THAT is to change the Words of Allah, SWT. So that is what had happpend to the copies destroyed, and also some of them was incomplete.


C) I don't understand this question - what is 'waste of time'? The Qur'an is not focused on the Prophet Esa, as. Can you rephrase?


D) I believe the Qur'an was revealed in different readings, so that everyone would understand it easier. But it is not a full answer and has to be filled.


E) Have you read the threads we have been directing you to? It does seem you are caught up in the thinking you started with here.


If you ponder about what Allah, SWT is telling you, you will find that 'seven' is something that you will find 'as a theme' in Islam. So of course Allah, SWT revelations in seven different readings is significant. It may be that we do not understand His Greatness, and understand all His signs, but we are at least obligated to LOOK at them and ponder about them. He is talking to you too, but it is up to you if you like to listen, maybe you have by now stopped, and are beginning to opening up your senses? Just be humble Ronniv and LET Him guide you.


I read a beautiful saying a long time ago that I have had with me since then ''It is only the one that is afraid to widen their view that has to fear Islam''. It should mean that if you search Islam from your heart, then do not be afraid (neither surprised) when you find the truth out, that it is from Allah, SWT, and His last guidance to humankind.


Salam

[ronniv93]

Your inability to understand the difficulty in translating from one language to another reveals that you have had little contact with non-Romance languages.

You have, with this statement:


1) Assumed way too much and


2) Been insulting to me and


3) Not addressed or answered my question in any way.


Who said that I didn't understand the difficulty in translating from one language to another? Apparently, only you. But I am not even going to spend much time on this point as my questions have not been answered and this has nothing to do with my questions as far as I can tell.

When thinking of foreign languages, english speakers have in mind the grammar rules regarding their own language.

My questions still stand as to which English translation can or should be trusted when they have such different meanings between each? And in fact your post brings up another question in mind: If Arabic is SUCH a hard and difficult and challenging language to be translated, then perhaps it would have been better to reveal it in a more "translatable" (I know I may have just made up a word here) language?


It would seem that if this were meant to be the last major communication that God made in terms of revelation that it should be simpler for more people to understand it. According to you, it seems, you have to learn Arabic first to truly "get it". And this goes back to the question I brought just brought up in an earlier post as to why would so much time be wasted in giving the Quran in all these different Arabic dialects when it could have just been given in different languages altogether. Surely, the Arabs could at least, on some level, understand those who spoke a different dialect, so why the need for all these different "readings".


Perhaps more time or effort could have been made in reciting the Quran in totally different languages so that all the people it was supposed to reach could understand it.

Wanting a direct translation is very difficult to obtain because the grammar rules and even the vocabulary of english and arabic are soooo different. If it is that big of a question try to learn some arabic or even some other asian language. It becomes quite difficult to achieve word for word translations.

I didn't ask for a direct word-for-word translation. I <b>KNOW</b> that it is not always possible to do word-for-word.


Why must the people here, when asked questions, take on the role or appearance of somehow being SOOOO superior as to reduce the questioner to almost a baby-stage of understanding?


Because you have assumed so much and put these words into my mouth, you have insulted my intelligence and still left my <b>ACTUAL</b> questions unanswered.

Peace

Please don't wish me peace in the same post that you insult me.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Ronniv,


There are several translations, IF you are interested in translations, here is more some of 29:48.


YUSUFALI: And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.


PICKTHAL: And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.


SHAKIR: And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.


All of the same verse, and there are others too.


Now you say about these translations ''These translations are vastly different, in my opinion, and I have seen this in several different verses. There is such a huge difference between translations as to totally alter the meaning of particular passages.


Why is this and how does one know which translation to trust?''


Can YOU explain to me, in what way they are 'vastly different' and then I will give you my understanding of them. But I will give you the priority to explain first.


Since you say that you have noticed this 'difference' in other verses too, do you UNDERSTAND the language of the Qur'an? Sometimes Allah, SWT speaks to us about things that has happend, sometimes of things happening and sometimes about things that will happen in future. If you do not understand the direct LANGUAGE of Allah, SWT and at the same time stop to LISTEN to Him, you will stay right where you are. Then you can pick out verses, without creating no understand what so ever about in what connections we are told these things, and say, 'well look here how should this be'? But this is NOT reading nor understanding His Message, it is interpreting His Message in a way that suits you. Not the right way to approach His Message.


But as a Muslim, I have been taught, that it is not the religion that should be adjusted to suit the believer, but it is the believer that shall adjusted to the belief. And THAT makes sense to me.


The translations of the Qur'an to a lot of languages are a HELP for those that do not know Arabic, likewise is the tafsir of the Qur'an a HELP to understand the more deeper understanding of the Qur'an.


How do you expect it to be possible to translate the Words of Allah, SWT, so directly? Remember we are not talking about an English authors memories being translated into another language, but the WORDS OF ALLAH, SWT. We have to endeavour a bit to be able to understand His Words. And that needs some serious engagement. Otherwise we can take the easy way out, and draw the conclusions that you draw and say, 'that's that'. That is one of the choices we have to make in this life.


Salam

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace ronniv and welcome back


I just skimmed thru Umm's replies so if u see any repetion pls forgive me


<b>Why, then, would some people become so upset at hearing the Quran recited in different ways if all it was was a different dialect and if they KNEW that the Quran was being revealed in this way?</b>Nobody gets upset for listening to different recitations matter of fact ways of recitation is a science on its own. Those who are advantaged with memorizing whole Quran and recite it on a pro basis, on an advanced stage of their learning they learn and use the 7 recitations.



<b>b ) What gave Uthman the right and the gall and the authority to DESTROY these other versions, or types, later on if they were truly revealed by Allah? This means that this man destroyed the very revelation of God!!! That baffles me that a person would do that if they TRULY believed it was God who did this?</b>


<b>This question is answered in the numerous articles I gave u. If u not satisfied with the replies then no problem u may just get over it. Like a student in a math class who can not understand a certain point regardless of the number of times it is explained to him/her, we are not trying to force u to understand or believe we merely give the reply.
</b>


c<b> ) It seems to me to be such a waste. Instead of clearing up things like what really happened to Jesus, for example, time is wasted in revealing the Quran in all these different Arabic "dialects", as they are called. </b>


<b>Nothing in Quran is a waste. And what really happened to Essa is clearly explained. Alla's Wisdom is not a waste. U too be careful with what u say about Allah we consider this a slander to Allah. But since it is your first time I will not ban u. Your measuring what should be and what should not be included in Quran. Who r u to do that??????
</b>


d<b> ) Furthermore, why reveal them in all these ways if Allah knew that they would all just be destroyed within a few years anyway?</b>


<b>Because Allah Wanted to.
</b>


<b>e ) Also, would it not have been more useful to maybe reveal the Quran in OTHER languages altogether as opposed to 14 different Arabic versions? Perhaps there wouldn't be so much difficulty with translation of it if Allah had simply given it in different LANGUAGES to begin with. But 7 or 14 different versions of Arabic??? I just don't get the point.</b>


You r repeating yourself here and stating that u can not understand but again trying to suggest what Allah Must do. Again be careful.



I might be repeating myself here ronniv.


see we are fine as Muslims, we are sure Allah Is One with no sons in any form either by title or actual. He Is Not consisting of parts, He Is Eternal, He Sent many prophets and Messengers to call for Islam and only Islam. He Sent Mohamed as the final Messenger as a last chance for mankind to believe, revealed Quran in Arabic as final book not changed or corrupted Alhamdulelah well preserved till the Day After.


We are fine like that we are not trying to bring u over to Islam, u can continue being with us of course.

[ronniv93]

Nobody gets upset for listening to different recitations matter of fact ways of recitation is a science on its own. Those who are advantaged with memorizing whole Quran and recite it on a pro basis, on an advanced stage of their learning they learn and use the 7 recitations.

Apparently, someone DID get very upset about different "recitations".

   
<b>Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61</b>


Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:


I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me.


<b>I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it</b> and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me".


I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours".


<b>So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle</b> and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

I guess Umar bin Al-Khattab had no idea about these other ways of reciting.


I mean, he was practically going to beat the man up over this. He wrapped his shirt around his head, SEIZED him and DRAGGED him to Muhammad and called him a liar.


That's pretty harsh!

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


From the Hadith that Ronniv quoted,


I emphasize on the last part, "...It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."


Do YOU know if the companions learnt everything at once, or like most of us do, little by little? I don't.


Still you are missing what you are asking/repeating over and over again, to be answered, THE QUR'AN HAS BEEN REVEALED
TO BE RECITED IN SEVEN
DIFFERENT WAYS...


When will you listen or just drop it Ronniv...

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Ronniv I guess u posted the whole hadeeth and your not making sense any more here. I will not comment on that.


But I hope u take my above mentioned comments on my previous post in consideration.


Plus u jumped in Anya's face for saying that u say Jesus is Allah's son I think that is what u believe. In order not to hijack this thread I am starting a new one.


Pls visit this thread


http://www.islamsms.com/bb/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=2553

[reepicheep]

Muslimah wrote:


> Sobhan Allah I know I just suspended your account


> yet I will make the reply U dont even read the posts


> correctly. I said this point about the Jewish dogma


> u r so obssessed to find a point to raise. Insh a Allah


> I will tackle this point specifically later. the 7th day


> issue in JEWISH dogma in case u didnt grasp it before.


The bible clearly states that God created the world in six days, and then rested on the seventh day. If you feel it is necessary to criticize Jews for believing this, then obviously you must also criticize Christians for believing the same thing.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah,


Assalamu aleikum,


Allah, SWT says in His Last Message to mankind,


''Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!''
The Qur'an 7:54

[ronniv93]

I cannot simply accept that there are "7 recitations" when the scholars of Islam themselves are not agree on this. This may be the more popular view or the longest-held view, but according to Ahmad von Denffer, there have been up to 10 or 14 different readings identified.


http://www.islamworld.net/UUQ/chapter_5.html

Other Views
Later on other views emerged, making ten or fourteen well-known readings.