The Qur'an On Trial

[Muslimah]

Sobhan Allah

Ok AbuNOran you have fun and reply to Whisper, we will not respond before you. BUT PLS SLEEP FIRST Matter of fact Whisper misunderstands our not responding sometimes. It is just not even worth reading, so how about responding. Simply whisper fails to make a properly articulated post.

But you also asked us to think of a description. Jazakum Allah khairan for the idea. I can actually think of many, take those:

“A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.” (Quran 3: 69)

“And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them.” (Quran 7: 146)

“So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them.[1] And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn (good-doers - See V.2:112).” (Quran5:13)

“Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur’ân)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from your Lord increases in most of them (their) obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.” (Quran 5:68)

Unless you have somethin else in mind. And you know what brother, I think you feel the same way we all do, is that we are grateful to Allah for being able to see the truth. May Allah never makes us among:

"Your Ilâh[2] (God) is One Ilâh (God - Allâh, none has the right to be worshipped but He). [b:9dce81c609]But for those who believe not in the Hereafter, their hearts deny (the faith in the Oneness of Allâh), and they are proud.[[/b:9dce81c609][/color:9dce81c609]3]" (16:22)

[wel_mel]

salamo alikom Abu noran.

dont you agree with me abu noran that they really know where is the Truth but they Won't accept it? dont know why?

however, here are some Verses regarding the Examples of Amai and Whisper. pls correct if there is any mistake. Gazak allahu khiran.

2-109 -Quite a number of the people of the book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till God accomplish his purpose; for God hath power over all things.

2-146 -The people of the book know this as they know their own sons, but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.

3-71 -Ye people of the book why do ye clothe truth with falsehood, and conceal the truth, while ye have knowledge?

6-93 -Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, I have received inspiration, when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed? if thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying), yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward, a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of his signs

7-146 -Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right them will I turn away from my signs: even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. for they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.

8-6 -Disputing with thee concerning the truth after it was made manifest, as if they were being driven to death and they (actually) saw it.

18-56 -We only send the apostles to give glad tidings and to give warnings: but the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat my signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned

23:68, 69, 70, 71, 72 .....................................

wel_mel

[amai]

*covers very wide grin*

Whisper dude, where did you get this stuff? :wink:

and hey, why don't you post something like that regarding the Bible?

anyhoo, i'll be waiting for AbuNoran's post. must have good stuff in it.

[Purgetory]

Two Questions, One is to the moderator and one is to Purgetory, although I want all Muslims to answer, the answer should be the same for you all. Will you allow this to be no holds barred?

Do you all believe all the Qur'ans in the world are identical, and that it is perfectly preserved and free from any variation?[/quote:2688b46e12]

To the first question, its realy simple, how ever different we could be, when discussing our differences, its realy not hard to keep the respect. Amai has done well so far.

If you stick to that, I dont think you will face any trouble. If your post was deleted even though you did stick to that rule, then my friend, I will leave the forum with you. For there is no point in a religion forum where the other side is not allowed to get his questions and comments answered.

Concerning the second question, yes, the one that are printed by muslims. France tryed to make a copy that holds errors and different teachings, didnt go far. Israel is doing that now.

These books I dont consider as Qoran. The one and only Qoran is the one printed by muslims, there is an online copy in english as well as arabic. The topic is in the new muslims forum I believe.

Concerning the rest, I will reply after Abu Noran as he has asked, I'm keeping it in a word document for now.

[Muslimah]

Puregtroy you are absolutely correct it is only if Whisper can understand

[AbuNoran]

As-salaam alla maan etba Al-hoda,

Jazakum ALLAH khiran brothers and sisters for posting these good descriptions as they are all valid and fit them well and there are even more in the Quran. I will post the ones that came to my mind yesterday at the end of this post.

Sobhan Allah Ok AbuNOran you have fun and reply to Whisper, we will not respond before you. BUT PLS SLEEP FIRST Matter of fact Whisper misunderstands our not responding sometimes. It is just not even worth reading, so how about responding. Simply whisper fails to make a properly articulated post.[/quote:837a770b71]

Jazaky ALLAH khiran my dear sister, you are absolutely right, that's why I have put both on ignore, they are even wasting their time typing those posts. NO intelligence in their thinking what so ever.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="304" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>salamo alikom Abu noran. dont you agree with me abu noran that they really know where is the Truth but they Won't accept it? dont know why?[/quote:837a770b71]

Wa-Alikum As-salaam my good brother, I completly agree with you, the Ayat that you posted and I will post next can tell you why they reject the truth as ALLAH (SWT) told us so 1425 Hijri years ago.

Here are the Ayat that poped to my head yesterday when I read this and the other posts:

Al-A'raf (Surah #7)

[179] [i:837a770b71]Many are the Jinns and men We have made for Hell: they have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not[/i:837a770b71]. [b:837a770b71][u:837a770b71]They are like cattle, nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning)[/u:837a770b71].[/b:837a770b71]

[180] The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on Him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in His names: for what they do, they will soon be requited.

[181] Of those We have created are people who direct (others) with truth, and dispense justice therewith.

[182] Those who reject Our Signs, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways they perceive not;

[183] Respite will I grant unto them: for My scheme is strong (and unfailing).

[184] Do they not reflect? Their Companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.

[185] [b:837a770b71]Do[/b:837a770b71] they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their term is nigh drawing to an end? In what Message after this will they then believe?

[186] [u:837a770b71]To such as Allah rejects from His guidance, [b:837a770b71]there can be no guide:[/b:837a770b71] He will leave them in their trespasses, wandering in distraction[/u:837a770b71].[/color:837a770b71]

Al-Furqan (Surah #25)

<span>[44] [u:837a770b71]Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle; [b:837a770b71]nay[/b:837a770b71], they are worse astray in Path[/u:837a770b71].[/color:837a770b71]</span>

<span>And you wonder why I don't respond to you any more.</span>

<span>My reply to the ridiculous post in details is coming next, but think about this and you might understand why I said any intelligent person would have thought twice before posting something like this.</span>

<span><span>If you go to [u:837a770b71][b:837a770b71]any[/b:837a770b71][/u:837a770b71] country in the whole world from north to south, east to west and buy the Quran from each of these countries, you will [u:837a770b71]NOT[/u:837a770b71] find any difference in each and every one of the Quran you bought, that's my challenge to you right now.[/color:837a770b71]</span></span>

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<span><span>Concerning the rest, I will reply after Abu Noran as he has asked, I'm keeping it in a word document for now.[/quote:837a770b71]</span></span><span><span><span>Brother Purgetory (and all the other brothers and sisters), it's ok, you can go ahead and reply to him :wink: , I know you can't wait, after all the thread is not going anywhere and its time to turn the table around, enough is enough. My advice to you all and myself is to choose our words wisely cause they either count towards or against us and we will be asked about them.[/color:837a770b71] </span></span></span>

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[Whisper]

Your claim is that the Qur'an is perfect, guarded by Allah, I can prove, and have started the process, that the Qur'an has been edited, that there are loads of varitions and a great number of mistakes.

Realistically, I only have to prove that there is ONE mistake.

[Whisper]

Stop wasting time and get on with it but I like the below

"If you go to any country in the whole world from north to south, east to west and buy the Quran from each of these countries, you will NOT find any difference in each and every one of the Quran you bought, that's my challenge to you right now."

This is easy, ONE mistake,

However, since you still dancing around me,

Here's the same soft one again

It is claimed that there are no variant readings or versions of the Quran.

And, according to Sura 10:37-38, no one could write anything like the Quran.

These are rather bold claims...especially to one who has seen the evidence for the Bible's trustworthiness and claim to truth. But these claims are easily inspected. We have the scholarship available to us today to see if these things are so. The following is a list of FACTS concerning the Muslim claim of inspiration for the Quran.

The Quran contains grammatical errors (Suras 2:177,192; 3:59; 4:162; 5:69; 7:160; 13:28; 20:66; 63:10...) In fact, more than 100 aberrations from the Arabic language have been noted by Arabic scholars.

The Quran uses words foreign to the Arabic language. These include Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Ethiopian, Persian...over 100 in all. This also shows the manner in which Muhammad borrowed stories from merchants as they passed through Mecca.

There is absolutely no doubt among western and Arabic scholars that many variant readings exist for the Quran (over 140 for just one sura!). Now, that in itself should not be important, except we must remember that Muslim doctrine states that the Quran is perfect and that it exists in only one form - that which was handed down to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing (over 120 verses from just one sura!). This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents.

Uthman's standard version is in itself proof of the malleability of the Quran...what need is there for a standardized text if no variations exist? Verses have been removed, added, changed...interestingly the Muslim excuse is that Allah may "change his mind" on certain teachings. Is this not the way of all false religions?

There is no such thing as an "original" Quran. The fact is that Muhammad spoke the contents of the Quran during his fits or when something needed to be done. Sometimes those words would be recorded, sometimes not. Often they were written on leaves or sticks. None of these original writings exist today. Period.

The "heavenly language" of the Quran is, conveniently, not only in Muhammad's own tongue, but in the dialect of his own tribe! What are the odds?

The eloquence of the Quran is merely a matter of opinion. It is a confused collection of jumbled suras, often wordy and in no particular order. It has been called "humiliating to the human intellect"..."mediocre literature"..."exceedingly incoherent"..."badly edited"... "obtusely arranged" (and these last two from a Muslim scholar!).

[AbuNoran]

WOW - Talk is cheap, unless,......[/quote:9c545edbe0]Talk is NOT cheap, its free. And u r the perfect example for that.

Man you can't even get this one right.

Why do keep posting the same thing over and over???

Are you brain dead or something???

[Muslimah]

.

My advice to you all and myself is to choose our words wisely cause they either count towards or against us and we will be asked about them.[/color:ac184f0be0][/quote:ac184f0be0]

Jazakum Allah kharian katheeran AbuNOran for a precise and concise reply. However, I doubt if Whisper shall understand. Any way at least Alhamdulelah we freed our status before Allah. And I hope Whisper realizes why we sometimes don't respond. We only fear Allah not any creation. And you know what Whisper, Purgetroy was correct about us Alhamdulelah observing manners. You are complaining about us mods. I have been blamed so many times for being soft and having patience. In this we all serve Allah.

You know what I will not even bother. Just take the time and effort. Go around the world, spend money and buy Quran if they sell you.

Allah protected and shall protect His book to the Hereafter.