Blessings And Thoughts From A Christian

[ChildOfNowhere]

Well, as I recently told another Muslim:


I guess I've learned about as much as I care about Islam. My last e-mail to you was a bit harsh, and I do apologize for that; but, as with the posts on the board, you have reacted exactly as I thought you might.


When it comes to religion, I make it a point to challenge everyone about their beliefs, because beliefs can be a very dangerous thing. It seems that humans are quite content to kill, or commit any atrocity, if you make them believe it is the will of their god.


Islam has never been the sole target of my challenges. I love to corner even my closest friends on some point of dogma. It's what I do. I try to force people to think.


And as I've said, if I am wrong, show me how I am wrong.


But, alas, as with most religions and religious people with whom I debate, nobody seems willing, or capable, to truly hold their beliefs in front of the spotlight. You seem quite ready to share your faith with me, instruct me in the ways of Allah; but you are surprised when I do not placidly accept what you offer.


I am not going to bend my knee or bow my head before ANY book or theology simply because it it presented to me as fact. And if I am wrong, if I stand before God and he tells me that yes, in fact, Islam was the right path; I shall say, simply, that I reviewed its teachings, its dogma, and its believers and I found it lacking. And if God would condemn me to hell for seeking the truth, so be it.


There are many things about your religion that I find to be quite touching and true but, for the most part, these things are nothing new... a repackaging of some former content. And there are also, I am sad to say, many things about Islam (and most religions) that I find to be completely ridiculous. Ideas that can ONLY be accepted by faith because to apply reason to them would result in heresy or outright blasphemy.


And so, I am sorry if I have offended you. It was never my intent. I'll take my ponderings elsewhere. Maybe I'll go have more fun with the Atheists. I LOVE to get them bent out of shape.


Are you starting to understand more why I chose the name Child Of Nowhere?


Thank you for your time.


Let truth and innocence reign,


-- Child Of Nowhere --

[laian]

Bismillah


Hello ChildofNowhere, I just wanted to welcome you to the board. I just saw this post and I agree with you, that out of everything you said the only thing anyone is focusing on is the fact that you said "Father"


If you are still reading here, I just wanted to let you know to please not get hung up about this one thread, and if you are still interested there is a lot to learn about Islam here and I know the people on this board are very knowledgable and kind.


I would like to add my opinion about the Father versus Allah thing, because I don't think it has been made clear.


Child, I understand why you refer to God as Father, because it invokes feelings of love and closeness. But I will briefly try to explain why this is such a big deal to Muslims, and maybe you will understand why everyone is focusing on that.


First of all, it is not a small issue, it deals with the biggest and most basic tenet of Islam -- that is, who is God?


Second of all, there is no "dogma" in Islam that requires anyone to refer to God only as Allah. I refer to Him as either Allah or God, or whatever word the person I'm talking to understands.


Ok... so who is God? In Islam, God is defined as being One, alone, with no partners and needing no help. Ok, simple enough. He is also defined as being something that humans cannot comprehend. He created us, and thus is so much more powerful and such a greater thing than anything on earth, and our minds cannot understand everything about Him. So, to call him "Father" implies that he can be the "father" of something, as in having offspring or recreating. Since God is nothing that we understand, he cannot have this human characteristic, so to call him a "father" of anything is actually blasphemy. He is a creator, not a father.


Now, I completely understand that you were not in any way trying to suggest anything like that, and you were only using the kindest words, and actually when you first used that word your intention was only to express the unity of Islam and Christianity in that we believe in the same God, and you were demonstrating that it IS the same God, no matter what we or others may call Him.


And you are absolutely right. No matter what you call God, He is still God. And in Islam, Muslims are SOOO respectful of God as the creator and they are very *careful* in how the refer to him, because they want to avoid at all costs any blasphemy or any inappropriate words to refer to God. Most Muslims would consider the word "father" as inappropriate because of what I just explained, but that does not mean that if YOU as yourself call him Father that you are talking about any other God. And I think most Muslims should NOT be offended by that reference, and I believe the people here were not offended, but they just wished to explain to you that it is a very good thing to be respectful and take care when mentioning the name of God.


Now about the name Allah... as I said, there is nothing in Islam that says you MUST call God Allah. Allah is simply the arabic word for God. Simple as that. The reason most Muslims prefer to use the word Allah is because in arabic, the word Allah can have no plural form, and it can have no gender-specific form, as in some languages nouns can be feminine or masculine. The grammatical charateristics of the word "Allah" has none of these things, and so is the perfect way to refer to the *ONE* God, whereas in english the word "God" can be made into "Gods" or "Goddesses" But that does not mean that there is anything wrong with saying God.


So by saying Allah, it is just another way that muslims are so careful to be respectful of our creator, and to refer to him in the most appropriate manner. For you, calling God "Father" is the most appropriate way. It should not matter what you call Him.... but as you can see from the response you got on this thread, I would just like to advise you that when speaking to muslims, to be considerate, it's better to say God the *Creator* instead of God the *Father* , which will show that you are understanding and respectful of their beliefs, just as I would *hope* that we as muslims can show that we are understanding and respectful of YOUR beliefs.


On that note, you mentioned that Islam seems like the same old stuff in a new package.... you are absolutely right about that. Islam is not a new religion, and there is much in common between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.


Now I'm sorry if I have given just as much attention to this "father" topic as everyone else, but I hope that we can drop it for now? Because I don't like to see people arguing over small points... and although to us as muslims it is NOT a small point, to you it is, because you are not intending to discredit our view of God, and it is more important to focus on the REAL topic.


Which is what I would like to do.

Perhaps you too would condem me, as I have read the Qu'ran and I do not refer to myself as Muslim.
Would you condem me?

First of all, no muslim should condemn you for reading the Qur'an just because you are not a muslim. The Qur'an is the word of God, and the words of God are for everyone, so I am very happy that you have read the Qur'an, and I would encourage you to study it

There are many interpretations of that story, but to me this man of the One God was saying, "You have a mind. Go out for yourself and decide who God is."

Yes, you are right. This is important.... it is important to use your MIND. I was raised in a religion of blind followers where no one questioned anything. When I finally was able to open my MIND I found that the religion was not at all what I would consider correct, and then I found Islam..... and it was SO logical.


Islam is a logical religion. It encourages learning and seeking real knowledge. In the Qur'an, God says, "and say, My Lord, increase me in knowledge." You are encouraged to ask questions, to study, to learn the truth. Do not follow blindly. For every aspect of Islam, there is a clear and logical explanation.

Why do so many Islamic leaders believe that America is conducting a holy war? Why do so many Muslims feel that America is a nation of evil?
Why do so many Muslims openly hate Christians?


Why do so many Christians openly hate Muslims?


Why do so many Christians AND Muslims hate Jews?


Why do we, as a spiritual people believing in One God (the same God, as far as I can tell), hate anyone?

You are right. I can't really answer your questions. I don't know why muslims openly hate christians. None of the muslims I know hate any christians, and actually, muslims are required to be respectful to christians AND jews because they worship the same God as us. So I don't know about most of what you are talking about. As far as America being a nation of evil.... I can sort of see where they are coming from, because there is so much freedom in America that bad people can run rampant... crime rates are high, divorce rates are high, kids are smoking and doing drugs, alcohol is widely used, and there is so much dating and having relations outside of marriage. Of course America is not the only country with such things, of course not. But America is very "visible" in the world, and has a lot of power... so it becomes sort of the "identity" of these things, unfortunately.


But as far as hating people, you are right, we should not hate anyone. To hate someone is to show arrogance. There is a hadith that says,


<b>Abdullah bin Mas`ud (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: A man who entertains a grain of arrogance in his heart will not enter Paradise. Someone said: A man likes to wear fine clothes and shoes. The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: Allah, the Exalted is the All-Sublime and He likes beauty: arrogance means disdaining the truth and despising people. (Narrated by Muslim) </b>


So to despise someone is to be arrogant, and if you are arrogant you will not enter Paradise??? That's a big deal. You are right, Child, there is no room for hate in any religion.


I've already said too much about why America is considered "evil." If I'm wrong, then I apologize, but that's just what I think the reasonings are. It doesn't mean I agree with it... I'm an American, my family is American, I was born here, my family was born here, for as many generations as I know. That has nothing to do with my religion, which used to be Christianity, and is now Islam. There should be no problems between christians and muslims.... but the world is never that simple.


So now I don't want to comment on Bush or Afghanistan, or Iraq, or anything of that political nature, because I don't know much about what's really going on... all I know is that a lot of innocent people, of all religions, are being affected by this whole issue.

Why would you hate my nation?
Why would you hate my religion?


Are we not brothers in humanity?


Do we not both weep at the site of a suffering soul?


Is your heart more righteous than mine?


Do you really believe that it is?


Is that what your soul is telling you?


Who am I to judge the righteousness of your heart?


How does anybody but GOD have the ultimate right to condemn the heart of a man?

As individuals, I don't think any of us hate your nation or your religion. Your nation is My nation, as I mentioned before, and for many other muslims as well. There are a lot of Americans converting to Islam... how can they be expected to choose sides? America is a melting pot, and it is home of all people, regardless of religion. That is one of the many good things about this country.


And as individuals, I think we are all compassionate. I am sad about all the loss of life, both in America and in the middle east. I sincerely hope it will stop soon.


But when you go wider, and look at what is in the media, and look at people in power who try to present an image.... it does not represent the real truth, of what you will find when you get right down into the towns and homes of a place. Real people are just that ... real people, and we all have the same respect for life, we all have parents and siblings and children. I don't think it's at all valid to say that all muslims hate christians, and all christians hate muslims. Because most of them don't.


I'm sorry for such a long post, so I will end now. ChildofNowhere, again welcome to the board and thank you for your post with the questions. It's good to know there are people like you who really are searching for the truth, and who have an open mind enough to study all religions. I hope you find what you are searching for.


Salam

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom Laian


I just would like to add on two points to make them clear here. Muslims dont prefer to use the Name Allah because it is the Arabic meaning of God. Matter of fact the arabic word for God would be Ilah إله


However we use the Name Allah as in some cases we use ARRahman Arraheem, AlMalek .. Dhulla`rash, Rafe`eudarajat... and many other Names and Attributes of which we only know few which are contained in Quran or taught to us by Allah.


But what is so special about the Name Allah is that no one ever dared to take it as his name. No one. It is a unique Name of Allah. At some times, those who presented themselves as Gods took some of Allah's Names for themselves but never Allah. Like in Quran Pharon of Mussa said "ana rabukum Al`la" in this he used Rub which is Lord and Al`ala which is the Most hight. I am just giving u one example.


As for the other point. Again I just would like to mention, yes we dont mind child using the term father. But being on an Islamic forum, we must fulfill our responsibility and explain when it comes to a fundamental issue, just as I said in my post and u evern confirmed it for better understanding. Matter of fact that is a main and major difference between Muslim and Christian belief. We are warned not to think of Allah, the Creator, The Protector, The King, The All Capable, The All Knowledgable as a father no matter what we mean. It is our duty to correct such concepts. Of course we do understand his position fully. It is his religion and belief.


While I am not sure if u agree with me, in such case we will not be talking about the same God. Just review his definition of the Trinity. Does this make it we are talking about the same God. No. Allah Is One Who Does not consist of many that is what the Name Al Ahad means. Exactly the One Who Is not consisted of many.


Just thought to explain some Arabic language.


As he stated, unfortunately:


"<b>I shall say, simply, that I reviewed its teachings, its dogma, and its believers and I found it lacking. And if God would condemn me to hell for seeking the truth, so be it."
</b>


I m so sorry for him, he does not know what does that mean, he made his decision and this will not harm anyone but him. He thinks that he is challenging, debating or whatever for the Most important issue in mankinds life. He made this decision of which he is not aware of the consequences.

[radiyah]

Bismillah

As he stated, unfortunately:
"I shall say, simply, that I reviewed its teachings, its dogma, and its believers and I found it lacking. And if God would condemn me to hell for seeking the truth, so be it."


I m so sorry for him, he does not know what does that mean, he made his decision and this will not harm anyone but him. He thinks that he is challenging, debating or whatever for the Most important issue in mankinds life. He made this decision of which he is not aware of the consequences.

La Ilaha Ila Allah, I really hope that child would reconcider and learn more


about Islam, this is very serious, the words he said, may Allah Have mercy on us and


Guides us to what He loves and Pleases.


Salam

[ChildOfNowhere]

laian,


Thank you very much for your post. Your explanation is very lucid and very helpful. I intended my previous post to be my last, but I wanted to express my thanks to you.


I did not realize the degree to which Christians and Muslims differ in how they define their relationship with God. Even in my readings of the Qu'ran and a few of the Hadiths I did not see this. It would appear to me that, whereas Christians think of themselves as children aspiring to the kingdom of their Father, God, Muslims tend to define themselves as servants. And, in fact, I was surprised to find out that this is more than a conceptual difference but a fundamental doctrine. And so, I now realize that my use of the word "Father" to many on this board is far more than a semantic difference.


As a Christian, we are taught that God is love. He is not looking for more servants to add to His Kingdom but more children to fill His house. He wants to be in relationship with you, not because you deserve it but just because He made you, and is "head over heels" in love with you.


Anyway, thank you for clarifying this issue for me, laian, and I'd like to make only one observation and then I'll be gone from your house.

So, to call him "Father" implies that he can be the "father" of something, as in having offspring or recreating. Since God is nothing that we understand, he cannot have this human characteristic

If God is nothing that we understand, if the scope of God is beyond our comprehension, how can you honestly say that he <b>cannot</b> have this ability? In saying so, would you not be placing a restraint or definition on Him? And would you not agree that any "human characteristic" that we possess would have to be of his design?


Personally, I prefer my God to be my Father. I would rather be His child than His servant. I try to live life according to his teachings not because He commands it but because I love Him and wish to please Him.


This belief makes more sense to me, it rings of more truth in my ears, and it seems to preclude me from becoming a Muslim.


If I am wrong, dear Father, then I sincerely ask that you reveal it to me otherwise.


And to Muslimah,


You do not understand the concept of the Holy Trinity. And as certain as you may be that I am running full throttle for the bowels of hell, I am equally certain that I am not.

I m so sorry for him, he does not know what does that mean, he made his decision and this will not harm anyone but him.

I know <b>exactly</b> what I meant.

[ChildOfNowhere]

Radiyah,


I sincerely thank you for your concern. You have my word that I will continue to explore the tenents of your faith.


Child Of Nowhere

[radiyah]

If I am wrong, dear Father, then I sincerely ask that you reveal it to me otherwise.

Peace child


At this moment of time in my home it is 2:47 AM, I sincerely pray to Allah The All MIghty, The Merciful to guide u and show u the light, and to c the truth and the difference between father and Allah. It is good that u asked this question, Insha'Allah He will show u Insha'Allah He will. May Allah guide u to what he loves and pleases.


One more thing, we are not scholars, we might present things in a wrong way to u child, don't go stay and we will try to answer u don't just give up wait, and we will try to answer all those unexplained questions of yours, and by God's Will u will learn more. Hope that u will reconcider


Peace

[radiyah]

Radiyah,
I sincerely thank you for your concern. You have my word that I will continue to explore the tenents of your faith.

Alhamdulilah, thanks to Allah. A light is starting to shine


Peace

[KeePtHeFaitH]

Greetings to all of you. I pray that you will read my words and give them consideration.
Why do so many Islamic leaders believe that America is conducting a holy war? Why do so many Muslims feel that America is a nation of evil?


Why do so many Muslims openly hate Christians?


Why do so many Christians openly hate Muslims?


Why do so many Christians AND Muslims hate Jews?


Why do we, as a spiritual people believing in One God (the same God, as far as I can tell), hate anyone?


Why would you hate my nation?


Why would you hate my religion?


Are we not brothers in humanity?


Do we not both weep at the site of a suffering soul?


Is your heart more righteous than mine?


Do you really believe that it is?


Is that what your soul is telling you?


Who am I to judge the righteousness of your heart?


How does anybody but GOD have the ultimate right to condemn the heart of a man?

Hello 2 U. I could you reply some questions. But my english bad very bad and poor. And I m not schoolar of islam, Not all muslims thinks such so you said. I m trying to learn english. Maybe anyday when I speak good english I talk with you.


Bye...

[ChildOfNowhere]

KeePtHeFaitH,


Thank you. I look forward to talking with you.


Child Of Nowhere