Blessings And Thoughts From A Christian

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


I am just confirming what Iman said, Childofnowhere, we are not children of Allah. But rather servants, devotees, Creation, in Arabic e`bad which best translates as those who worship only Allah nothing else. Allah begotten noone neither was He begotten. But as far as I understand from your post, then u r a Jehovah witness.


As for your reply to rock we are not the least offended child, we understand u r talking from your own viewpoint. Although I made my comment about rocks point. I have a very special and personal opinion about the whole issue that stems from many hadeeth (narrations made after the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam). But to make a long story short, yes America's attitude may be provocative to others as acting like director of the world. But why would I be so critical of a nation that is trying to secure itself a prominent position. Why would i be critical of its attitude trying hard to top over the Muslim world specially. It is all our fault. We gave it this chance. We are also entitles no we are encouraged to make others respect us as Muslims. See Child if we did our job properly, noone would have been able to beat us. So now we are crying for what we suffer due to our shortcomings.


Hope I made sense to u.


Stay with us Child, we are not offended. Just browse and learn about Islam even if u feel that u r growing more convinced with what u r

[Anyabwile]

In the United States, Islam is growing rapidly among African-Americans because they are taught that Muhammed was, himself, African.  Is that enough reason to convert to any religion, because the prophet was the same race as you?

Just got to pop in quick here this debate makes interesting reading but i don't want to let the above little slip up, i'll assume that's what it was, a slip up, but yes i don't want to let it sit there unanswered. Mainly because it's a bit of a stupid generalization, Islam is growing amongst African Americans because they were "taught" (they cannot learn for themselves) that Muhammed was himself African. That's the only reason it's growing amongst African Americans is it? According to you it is...let me go over this again....because they taught Muhammed was African, that's the only reason Islam is growing rapidly amongst African-Americans...patronizing. How about because it's a life changing path to take while existing on earth, it's the direct word of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala)and nothing can touch it or come close to the feeling of completeness these African Americans get when they embrace Islam. And also to add to that, how about the fact that even though the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) was no African, skin colour wasn't an issue to him, listen to his final words for proof of this. This amongst countless other things, the main one being that Qur'an is the untouched word of God...that's a kind of big draw don't you think? Oh no..it's because the Prophet (Peace be upon him) was African, that's the only reason...good grief.


Now if you're talking about the Nation of Islam, then you should have said that, because that's nothing to do with Islam in my eyes. As an African-British person they make me ashamed to be honest. But that's another topic. I just wanted to address the way you seemed to try and imply that the only reason Islam is growing amongst African Americans is because they thought Muhammed was African. I don't like the way you wrote this for two reasons...


1) You imply Islam has nothing else to offer them except that (in their eyes) the Prophet (Peace be upon him) was the same colour as them.


2) African Americans are dumb enough to embrace a religion because of the colour of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him). And that alone is the reason why they would sweep to it in large numbers.


If you meant...Islam is growing rapidly amongst <b>some</b> African Americans because they thought the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) was African then you should have said that. Not try to imply that all of them are blind followers. It's growing rapidly because they...as with the rest of the planet, see the mess of confusion that Christianity has become, and they want to hear the word of God not several thousand versions of the word of man. Just be honest..it hurts to admit that but that's probably the reason it's growing isn't it. The majority of the planet will be Muslim by the speed Islam is growing at the moment...within our life time.


But the only reason the African Americans will be with them is because......


"They are taught" the prophet was African. If it was a mistake in your typing and you meant to say "some belive this" then i accept your apology, otherwise please pay more attention to what you're writing. I don't mean to turn this into a colour thing, i'm not saying you wasn't being deliberately offensive, just i feel accidentally offensive. And this needed clearing up.


Now, i'll let the rest get back to you ..continue...

[ChildOfNowhere]

Imam and Muslimah, we simply have different definitions of the word "father". The Christian God is Jehovah, but we refer to him simly as God because he is the One God.


It's in much the same way that Muslims refer to the One God as Allah, Christians refer to Jehovah as the One God and then we refer to him (sometimes) as Father. It is simply another order or level of referring to him.


Ultimately, why would it make a difference what we call him?


As a matter of fact, many times when a message or news story comes from an Arabic State, the word "Allah" if often translated into English as "God".


And I LIKE referring to God as "Father" because it evokes feelings of endearment and love. In common usage, I usually don't like to even use the word God because centuries worth of well-meaning believers, following perverted interpretations, have done horrible things in the namd of God.


As far as attacking INNOCENT Iraqi people or Afghai people, I don't believe we attacked ANY PEOPLE, we attacked the regime's of those people and the loss of innocent life is impossible in a war when your targets lurk in the shadows of homes and Mosques, hide behind women and children, and dare to call themselves Holy Warriors.


And I am at a lost, Muslimah, as to why you think we are trying to "topple" the Muslim world. Take a walk ANYWHERE in America and tell them you are Muslim and they DO NOT CARE. We don't care WHAT a person believes. We are a mixed-group of people believing a MULTITUDE of different things, living on the basis of mutual respect and Rule by Law.


The first example that comes to mind is how we actually RETURNED the remains of one of the terrorists of 9/11 to Afghanistan, in accordance with his families wishes, instead of simply wrapping him in animal fur, super-glueing the American flag to him and cremating his body. We had RESPECT for his remains. Not so for terrorists that behead their hostages.


There is even an established religion here that is known as "The Church of Satan". And we have laws enacted to specifically prosecute anyone that commits a "Hate Crime", which is any violence commited against a person that belongs to a faith that is a minority here in the US.


There are roughly 4 million Arabs living in the United States. There were only 785 "Hate Crimes" reported against Arabs after 9/11, and most people were outraged by that number.


And, no, I am not a 'Jehovah's Witness'. I would guess you suggested I am because you understand that the followers of that sect of Christianity believe they, themselves, will one day be gods. If that is the case, then you have failed to understand the teachings of their faith or you simply took propaganda for fact.


A mindless person BELIEVES everthing he is told and an intelligent person QUESTIONS everything he is told.


I am not a Jehovah's Witness, a Baptist, a Catholic, a Mormon, a Jew or a Muslim.


And why would you refer to my BELIEFS as a VIEWPOINT? A viewpoint is a statement that is true depending on the perspective from which it is observed. A belief is something held as absolute fact.


For every statement that I made, I provided documentation or example. If I did not provide enough, or you question the validity of what I provided, tell me and I will elaborate; or tell me where I am mistaken in my beliefs.


Consider these truths: Islam did not begin (as in a diversion from another established faith) until about the sixth century, 500 years after the death of Jesus, with the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. Jesus was, himself, considered... for lack of a better word... an infidel by the established church or religion. It was this religion that crucified Jesus, hoping to silence his followers. Some of the followers of this religion continued in their faith, others continued in the teachings of Jesus. Muhhamed comes along 500 years later and diverts from the established religion in much the same way that the followers of Jesus did. And in much the same way, some people followed Muhhamed and some continued with Jesus.


The religion of MY fore-fathers, as I am caucasian and of European decent, was Paganism. Along come the Romans with their State religion of Christianity, another DIVERSION and, again, some followed and some continued. Most pagans followed; although, even today, many of our traditions are Pagan and most of us don't even know it.


As for myself, I have re-discovered many of my fore-father's beliefs, incorporated them with the Christianity that was taugh to me as a child, and defined them with the teachings and philosophies of others.


Thanks you all for your time.


Child Of Nowhere

[ChildOfNowhere]

Anyabwile, forgive for the misconceptions that I, quite obviously, poured into that coment. You are correct. I made a mistake in saying it as I did and my assumptions were not based on a full knowlege of the truth.


I actually realized that last night while re-reading my post, and had planned on ammended the statement today. Please do not believe that I feel any animosity for African-Americans. I do not. I have several African-American friends... several Indian friends, a couple of Arab friends, a few Vietnamese friends. When you treat another person with respect and understanding, you and they both tend to forget what color their skin is.


Again, I apologize to you and to anyone else that may have taken exception to my remark.


Thanks,


Child Of Nowhere

[Anyabwile]

Anyabwile, forgive for the misconceptions that I, quite obviously, poured into that coment. You are correct. I made a mistake in saying it as I did and my assumptions were not based on a full knowlege of the truth.
I actually realized that last night while re-reading my post, and had planned on ammended the statement today. Please do not believe that I feel any animosity for African-Americans. I do not. I have several African-American friends... several Indian friends, a couple of Arab friends, a few Vietnamese friends. When you treat another person with respect and understanding, you and they both tend to forget what color their skin is.


Again, I apologize to you and to anyone else that may have taken exception to my remark.


Thanks,


Child Of Nowhere

Not a problem i had to re write my orignal post because as usual i was too hasty. Like i said i know it wasn't a colour issue with you, just had to try and clear it up anyway, let the debate continue.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace Child, I am in some kind of a hurry now. When I said viewpoints I was commenting on the political stand u r explaining and I can not take it against u as I said. because as I explaine many times, what the Muslim ummah is facing is simply symptoms of diseases we are suffering, we are all aware of it thru hadeeth.


And as far as I understand, Jehovah is the God for only one sect of Chritiantiy. Otherwise who is Jesus. And no thank u I am not asking u to further elaborate about your faith because we are not here to preach Christiantiy but rather to learn and help others learn Islam.


If u r interested in this just browse and ask we are Insh a Allah more than happy to reply.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


O child what is even more important is that it DOES matter what we call Allah, it is the core of interest. U know why? because we are commanded as He CALLED Himslef in the Quran. Plus we are even commanded to observe the kind of relation He specified. Plus Allah Called Himself Allah, The Merciful (Arrhamand and many other Names and Attributes) Thus it is not necessary in order to instil the meaning of love to call Him father. Actually the Merciful bears more than this.


Child Names of Attributes and Allah does make much difference in our life, it even govern Allah's relation with those who dont believe in Him I mean believe in Allah The Only True Deity Who Is Worthy to worship.

[ChildOfNowhere]

Bismallah,


I understand your point, and that it is a dogmatic teaching of your faith that you refer to God as Allah. And I also realize that faith is an almost, if not entirely, impossible point from wich to base a counter-point for a debate. People will cling with faith to a belief in total contradiction of all other history.


Let me explain this:


As a Muslim, you trace your religious lineage through Ishmael to Abraham. Abraham, according to contemporary historical accounts was the son of a man named Terah who, in turn, was a son of Noah.


But let's not even go that far back, let's just stick with Abraham.


Abraham can be seen as the genealogical starting point for all religious interpretations that have manifested from the Middle-East: Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Samaritan, Aramaic, Hebrew. All concepts of "The One God" stem from one place.


Now, take that one place and add time and you get multiple names for God. A few examples:


El, Elohim, Allah, El Shaddai, Adonai, Jehovah, Jehovah-Jireh, Jehovah-Rophe, Jehovah-Nissi, Jehovah-Shalom, Tsidkenu, Rohi, Shammah, Sabaoth, El Elyon, Abhir, Branch, Kadosh, Shaphat, El Roi, Kanna, Palet, Yesha, Gaol, Magen, Eyaluth, Tsaddiq, El-Olam, El-Berith, El-Gibhor, Zur, Melekh, FATHER, The First And Last.


This is not Christian theology or dogma. These are the names I have been able to uncover from MULTIPLE religious documetation and historical accounts.


And so, your belief that God must only be referred to as Allah, while it is obviously a strongly held conviction of faith, is not substantiated or upheld by historical research.


You quote the Quran and you and others have referred to the Hadith, of which there are quite a few:


al-Bukhari (d. 870) included 7275 hadiths


Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875) included 9200.


Abu Da'ud (d. 888)


al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)


al-Nasa'i (d. 915)


Ibn Maja (d. 886).


You say that, in the Quran, God COMMANDS that he be referred to as Allah. However, as I said above, this is not borne out by the progression of the concept of The One God. And, in truth, your Hadith would seem to contradict such "blind" faith:


"The superiority of the learned man over one who only worships is like the superiorty of the moon when it is full, covering the stars. The learned are the heirs of the Prophets who do not leave a legacy of dirhams and dinars but only of knowledge."


"God has not created anything better than reason, or anything more perfect or more beautiful than reason. The benefits which God gives are on its account; and understanding is by it, and God's wrath is caused by it, and by it are rewards and punishment."


I find the Hadith very interesting, because, as these examples reveal, the hadith often have blunt advice for Muslims that enters the realm of professional choices or political culture or philosophy - akin in influence to views of Aristotle.


Another interesting point is a verse from the Christian book of "Revelations", which is most often considered to have been written by the Apostle John. Revelations says that, upon his physical return to Earth, the One True Name of the One True God will be called out and every knee on earth shall bow and every tongue confess.


That's interesting because, even at the time of its writing, several hundred years before the time of Muhammed, we see, already, some discord related to the name of The One God. It's also interesting that John does not claim that Jehovah is THE NAME. In fact, he seems to imply that it isn't and that none of us know the true name of God.


And finally (and only because you asked), Christians do not view Jesus as a god or the One God. We believe that Jesus, along with an unseen guiding spirit we call "The Holy Ghost", share a very special relationship with God that we refer to as The Holy Trinity.


In closing, let me say that I find it disappointing that, from my entire previous discourse, the only point of discussion that anyone seems to care to debate is my semantic use of the word "Father" to refer to "God".


-Child Of Nowhere

[SisterJennifer]

Hi Child of Nowhere, I just noticed you here and thought to welcome you. I dont care so much about debate especially politics, but I really hope you learn something about Islam while you are here and that Allah will open your heart to all that is true.


Peace!


~Jennifer

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Peace child I suggest u re read my post slowly, I am not in any way trying to win a debate or even go into debate. Just re read my post. And if u r disappointed for a point, this point is a fundamental basis of our religion. He begotten no one and was not begotten. What is even more important is that Ibraheem was a Muslim yes, but not the first Prophet calling for Islam. Islam was called for by all Prophets and Messengers starting from Adam...ending with Mohamed (salla Allah a`alyhee wa sallam).


Also truly I couldnt see your point for quoting those two hadeeth which actually encrouage mankind to gain knowledge and strive to learn.