Question 1

[Whisper]

Muslims believe the word Allah was used by Jesus when he hung on the cross. The Bible records that Jesus said "Eli Eli lama sabachthani", but you say Jesus really cried out to Allah and said "Allah, Allah lama sabachthani"

Would you please explain why you would use this argument when you don't believe Jesus ever hung on the cross?

And second, since Jesus was quoting Ps 22:1 on the cross, isn't rather unlikely that both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are wrong using Eli, a Hebrew word, rather than Allah, an arab word?

[SisterJennifer]

............. isn't rather unlikely that both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are wrong using Eli, a Hebrew word, rather than Allah, an arab word?[/quote:aa491edfc4]Since Jesus was an Aramic speaker, the word he would have used to say God is ALLAH. And that is the word he did use. Hebrew speakers recorded it as Eli, and English speakers record it as God. It all means the same thing.

I don't know where you heard this argument. And you never did answer my question................

[Muslimah]

As Salam A`ala man itba`al hoda

Pls look at this reply, mind you we are not here to redicule each other, and again I will have to ask you to strictly observe the forum rules. They are basic human manners any way. And in all religions manners are to be respected. If u need to preech for Christianity I doubt that this is the place. You are not here to tell u we are in a tight position. We certainly are not here to challenge each other, but rather to exchange idea. You joing an Islamic forum was your choice. We never forced you or exercised any pressure for you to embrace Islam. therefore, I really hope to see a change in your language around the forum.

In my reply I will neither quote from the Quran nor the Bible, I will just stimulate your mind for a while. Speak logically.

I saw to save you the trouble of looking into another thread:

Hypothetically speaking, I will agree with you (may Allah forgive me) that Jesus is the only son of God who sent him for salvation. In other words, to shoulder mankind sins and expiates them, am I correct?

Let us first tackle this point.

You mean that Jesus was sent to rescue mankind from their sins, fine, does that apply on the people who lived during that era, does the effect extend until now? If it does extend, what happens when people kill, fornicate, steal or whatever? And here I mean just Christians of course. Will they still be forgiven due to the crucifixion of Jesus?

Now again let go back to our core of interest, Jesus being the son of God. In simple words I think this could create major conflict and contradiction to the believer. We agree that God has to be of a super incomparable power so as to be capable of creating the universe and maintaining continuous dominance over everything eternally. We also agree that God must be Eternal with no beginning or ending. So having a child will make this God have a part of the human characteristic including paternal emotions and others. This certainly demeans the Divine image I think.

Again, fine I agree with you. But the whole issue was to send God’s son as a last messenger to call people for proper worship and free them from sins. Why did he have to go through full human kind birth? I mean why he started as an embryo, regardless of course of the duration of pregnancy of Mariam, and then came to the world through normal birth. Don’t you agree with me that God could have just sent him as a grown up man? I think this would have been more adequate as a son of God. It would have been also more effective for people.

Another significant point as well is that Christians (as Jews do not believe in either Mohamed SAW or Issa peace be upon him) do not believe in Prophet Mohamed (prayer and peace be upon him). Under their belief I understand their situation. Since if God sacrificed His own son (while may Allah forgive me He is not obliged of course to sacrifice anything to have His own servants believe in Him) so it is only useless to send any more messengers.

Do you think that the Lord would love His servants more than the son?

Will he accept to be defeated by his servants when they killed his own son?

How come he was incapable of defending and rescuing his son?

The most puzzling part is what is coming (at this point I’ll quote from the Bible):

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=M...ish&version=NIV

The Genealogy of Jesus

1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2Abraham was the father of Isaac,

Isaac the father of Jacob,

Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,

Perez the father of Hezron,

Hezron the father of Ram,

4Ram the father of Amminadab,

Amminadab the father of Nahshon,

Nahshon the father of Salmon,

5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,

Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6and Jesse the father of King David.

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,

7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,

Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[1] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

12After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,

Abiud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Eliud,

15Eliud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.[2]

The Birth of Jesus Christ

18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[3] because he will save his people from their sins."

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[4] --which means, "God with us."

24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Read the contents of the above-mentioned link carefully, I'm sure you did before.

Now the Catholic sect believes in Jesus as the son of God while the Orthodox and Protestant churches perceive him as God himself.

Ok in both cases how come his genealogy is traced through human beings all the way. Only until the end when they explain that Virgin Mary was pregnant with him through holy spirit. So if this was the case why do they ascribe him to Abraham at the beginning until after fourteen and fourteen more generations to Joseph? The husband of Virgin Mary. They still call her virgin Mary, although according to the same page, they say she did not come to union with Joseph after marriage until she gave birth, which means that she did afterwards.

We may add that assuming Jesus (prayer and peace be upon him) was either God or son of God, ok when he was put on the cross and until he went out of his grave, who managed the universe?. Who was in charge at that time span? What puzzles me as well is that in all cases the sacrifice went in vain. Assuming that he sacrificed himself or his only son to expiate people's sins and have them believe in him. Yet there remained people who did not, us Muslims and Jews. So a God must have had a better way to show us the road. A stronger way.

[amai]

i'm not knowledgable about Islam and i haven't read the Bible yet cover to cover [b:3e5be149e6]but[/b:3e5be149e6] i'll just answer some of your questions basing from my belief. if i'm wrong doesn't mean Christianity is wrong, ok? i just don't know any better. ^^

You mean that Jesus was sent to rescue mankind from their sins, fine, does that apply on the people who lived during that era, does the effect extend until now? If it does extend, what happens when people kill, fornicate, steal or whatever? And here I mean just Christians of course. Will they still be forgiven due to the crucifixion of Jesus? [/quote:3e5be149e6]not because a person is Christian doesn't mean he/she's save. most people around me are Christian(or catholic) by infant baptism, but most of them never bothered to study their religion or even had a second thought on whether God exists or not.

real christians are those who have accepted Jesus' gift of salvation and rest assured, those who are saved wouldn't do the things you mentioned above. if they did, their consciense will be bugging them, buy they're forgiven nonetheless. that's how merciful God is.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> So having a child will make this God have a part of the human characteristic including paternal emotions and others. This certainly demeans the Divine image I think. [/quote:3e5be149e6]i don't quite understand what you mean, but i'll state my point.

Jesus, with the Holy Ghost coexisted with the Father from the beginning. they are 3, but still one. God didn't do the usual process of childmaking, because He doesn't need to. His Son was there with Him all along.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Why did he have to go through full human kind birth? I mean why he started as an embryo, regardless of course of the duration of pregnancy of Mariam, and then came to the world through normal birth. Don’t you agree with me that God could have just sent him as a grown up man? I think this would have been more adequate as a son of God. It would have been also more effective for people.[/quote:3e5be149e6]the Son humbled Himself to become Man(but still God. nothing's impossible with the Godhead :wink:). on His life on earth, He lived like we did. He work with human hands, loved with human heart and was even tempted the way we do today. since He's every part human(but still God), then it's natural for Him to be born like a Man too.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Another significant point as well is that Christians (as Jews do not believe in either Mohamed SAW or Issa peace be upon him) do not believe in Prophet Mohamed (prayer and peace be upon him). Under their belief I understand their situation. Since if God sacrificed His own son (while may Allah forgive me He is not obliged of course to sacrifice anything to have His own servants believe in Him) so it is only useless to send any more messengers. [/quote:3e5be149e6]messengers?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Do you think that the Lord would love His servants more than the son? [/quote:3e5be149e6]i don't think just because the Father sacrificed His begotten Son doesn't mean He loves the servants more than the Son. i don't see it that way so naturally, i can't answer your question.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Will he accept to be defeated by his servants when they killed his own son? [/quote:3e5be149e6]yeah. that's how great and humble God is. He created us yet He begs to His own creation to accept Him. sad isn't it? (imho, i don't think He's defeated)

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>How come he was incapable of defending and rescuing his son? [/quote:3e5be149e6][b:3e5be149e6]He[/b:3e5be149e6] was capable. but Jesus' suffering and death(and resurrection) is part of the plan of Salvation. if Jesus didn't suffer and die, then our penalty wasn't paid. we'd still face eternal death when we die.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>...........................................

angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Read the contents of the above-mentioned link carefully, I'm sure you did before.

Now the Catholic sect believes in Jesus as the son of God while the Orthodox and Protestant churches perceive him as God himself.

Ok in both cases how come his genealogy is traced through human beings all the way. Only until the end when they explain that Virgin Mary was pregnant with him through holy spirit. So if this was the case why do they ascribe him to Abraham at the beginning until after fourteen and fourteen more generations to Joseph? The husband of Virgin Mary. They still call her virgin Mary, although according to the same page, they say she did not come to union with Joseph after marriage until she gave birth, which means that she did afterwards. [/quote:3e5be149e6]

i don't believe in the Virgin Mary.(though I believe in Mary) i believe she gave a Virgin birth, but she had James after that and some other female daughters. so she didn't remain virgin.

regarding the lineage, it's natural to link Jesus to His forefathers because He's after all, human. He's like us in everything(generally speaking). humans have ancestors, so does He. He's called "Son of Man" and "Son of David", He considers John His cousin, James His brother etc.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>We may add that assuming Jesus (prayer and peace be upon him) was either God or son of God, ok when he was put on the cross and until he went out of his grave, who managed the universe?. Who was in charge at that time span? [/quote:3e5be149e6]the Father and the Holy Ghost [i:3e5be149e6]is[/i:3e5be149e6] still there.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What puzzles me as well is that in all cases the sacrifice went in vain. Assuming that he sacrificed himself or his only son to expiate people's sins and have them believe in him. Yet there remained people who did not, us Muslims and Jews. So a God must have had a better way to show us the road. A stronger way. [/quote:3e5be149e6]if the [b:3e5be149e6]Jews[/b:3e5be149e6] accepted Jesus, then I'll not. one Messianic prophecy is that Jesus would be rejected by His own people. that happened didn't it? but i know by the end of days, many of them will eventually be rescued.

if you say [i:3e5be149e6]stronger[/i:3e5be149e6] way, for me it's strong enough. it's the people's biased and unbelieving heart that keeps them from believing in Him.

i also have no answer for your question because i'm definitely not God. it's like asking someone "why did you kiss your sister's boyfriend?" only the person who did the act is in liberty to answer. no one should answer for her.

there are many christian sites out there, please visit them. it'll be a good start. i see some of you quoting the old testament, so i suppose you believe in them. if that's the case, then you can also see that the Father had been planning to send His Son for us. two Torah believing religions(christianity and judaism) believes that God planned to send a Messiah, i think it's only islam that doesn't hold that view.

i know it's hard to convert to a religion you've grown and defended all your life. i mean, i can't imagine myself being a hindu or such. but if you approach Christianity with an unbiased mind and heart(unlike the atheists), you'll see how much it makes sense.

like what whisper mentioned, you said that Jesus said "Allah Allah lama sabachthani." that's based on the new testament, so i assume you believe in it. Jesus mentioned too that "The Father and I are one." so it's easy for you to believe it too.

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[AbuNoran]

You mean that Jesus was sent to rescue mankind from their sins, fine, does that apply on the people who lived during that era, does the effect extend until now? If it does extend, what happens when people kill, fornicate, steal or whatever? And here I mean just Christians of course. Will they still be forgiven due to the crucifixion of Jesus?[/quote:acd83936e0]What about the people before him??

Are they all will NOT be forgiven cause they did NOT live to see Jesus.

You guys don't make any sense and there no logic in your beliefs.

Believing that Adam is your God would have made much better sense since he is the 1st ever human.

Talking about tight spots, I think you are the ones that are in it really.[/color:acd83936e0]

[Purgetory]

the Father and the Holy Ghost is still there.[/quote:136808765c]i just scanned through your post, sorry but i dont have alot of time to read, maybe later. i think answering the quote above would answer about everything.

the holy ghost, father and son are one being as you claim. yet you also claim the son to have died. so now, that one being is missing a part, no? if the holy ghost, father and son are one, then the holy ghost and the father ONLY are what? 0.59? :mrgreen:

dont mean to be insulting, but its either i'm drunk and i dont even know it, or someone else was drunk while writting some very famous book....

[SisterJennifer]

there are many christian sites out there, please visit them. it'll be a good start. i see some of you quoting the old testament, so i suppose you believe in them. if that's the case, then you can also see that the Father had been planning to send His Son for us. two Torah believing religions(christianity and judaism) believes that God planned to send a Messiah, i think it's only islam that doesn't hold that view.

i know it's hard to convert to a religion you've grown and defended all your life. i mean, i can't imagine myself being a hindu or such. but if you approach Christianity with an unbiased mind and heart(unlike the atheists), you'll see how much it makes sense.

like what whisper mentioned, you said that Jesus said "Allah Allah lama sabachthani." that's based on the new testament, so i assume you believe in it. Jesus mentioned too that "The Father and I are one." so it's easy for you to believe it too.[/quote:d7d752cf9c]

It's very nice that you are so eager about your religion. But I think before you go around telling a group of people that they are wrong, it might be benificial to know whom you are speaking with first. And be willing to listen to opposing opinions with consideration. I'm speaking generally, I am not accusing you of anything.

I tend to think of Judiasm, Christianity, (which seems forever changing :?), and Islam as something like a staircase. You start at the beginning and stop at the end. But how would you know that if you never read the end? You only know the first two 'Chapters.'

You might want to read the Quran (there are many good English translations) and reflect on it, before attempting to call their people to your faith.

Maybe the point you were trying to make about approaching religion with an open mind is actually good advice to yourself as well.

Just something to think about.

[amai]

What about the people before him??[/quote:2235553269]those people who believe in God before Christ will be the guests in the wedding of Jesus and the Church. (meaning, straight to heaven) i think those who didn't hear about God but had a good heart has a possibility to enter heaven.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Believing that Adam is your God would have made much better sense since he is the 1st ever human.[/quote:2235553269]bingo. Jesus is also called the [b:2235553269]Last Adam.[/b:2235553269]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>the holy ghost, father and son are one being as you claim. yet you also claim the son to have died.[/quote:2235553269]Jesus resurrected 3 days later. He wasn't dead(as a Man) forever.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>so now, that one being is missing a part, no? if the holy ghost, father and son are one, then the holy ghost and the father ONLY are what? 0.59? [/quote:2235553269]:mrgreen: lol. but seriously, their still one. the Son, though He died for 3 days, never ceased on existing. He still has His soul. even if their in different places, they're still one. don't ask me how they managed. God has powers far beyond our imagination.

just like now, the Holy Spirit is in every real believer yet the tri-unity is still there.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="260" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Maybe the point you were trying to make about approaching religion with an open mind is actually good advice to yourself as well.[/quote:2235553269]i'm doing just that and that. i've approached atheism, hinduism and even wicca.(and now, this.)

i had a chat with my newly muslim convert last night, he said muslims believe in the Torah. i asked if the whole of it, he said "just some."

(some goes on like this)

me: how do you know what parts to believe?

him: logic and reasoning

me: and you know very well that human logic and reasoning is flawed, right?

him: yes

me: are you aware of the Messianic Prophecies?

him: yes, i am.

him: and Jesus is the Messiah or Messenger of God

considering your fellow muslim was right, how did you know what you consider "logical"(in the Bible) is right and wrong?

and if Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah, why do you think would Allah save Jesus from suffering, when it's the main ingredient for Salvation? if He didn't suffer(and die) then He wasn't able to save us. therefore He isn't the Messiah.

so He isn't the Messiah. well, if you're aware of the Torah(or Old Testament), there are [b:2235553269]hundreds[/b:2235553269] of Messianic prophecies in there. all were fulfilled by Jesus. so if He's the Messiah, then He suffered and died for us which means He was the one who was crucified, not some other person.

note: i just based my conclusions with the answer of my muslim friend. correct me(so i can correct him) if i happen to be wrong. thanks.

i have few questions, please answer it.

1. you said it wasn't Jesus who was crucified but another person, where did you get this? quran?

2. did the person who was crucified, look like Jesus?

3. what happened to the body of the Jesus-look alike when he died?

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[Muslimah]

As Salam a1ala manitab`alhoda

Hi amai

Sincerely after reading your responses to my points I feel so grateful to Allah. While at the same time I invoke upon Allah to open your heart for the light. I have nothing more to say. Sobhan Allah your replies fail to make any sense. I wonder if you yourself are able to understand whay you are saying. I am really to say that. Well again amai I supplicte to Allah that you see the light. If you just try to free yourself from the self defense mechanism. I understand it could be very hard to stand looking at what you always believed in being accused of falsehood. But isn't better to recover the mistake than just carry own for the sake of not admitting of being mistaken. Believe me non of us is after you to leave your religion. You came here willingly and posted. We just replied

[amai]

i'll change my questions. i'll start from the beginning.

1. do you believe in the Torah?(yes/no/part)

2. do you believe in the Gospels?(yes/no/part)