An Open Discussion Among Muslim And Non Muslim Members Here

[safayat]

Jesus (Peace be upon Him) is not the Son of God, he is not begotten and he is not God in human form and he is not God incarnate. He did not claim as the Son of God. According to the Bible God is incomparable with man. Bible says, “ How can mere man stand before god and claim to be righteous? Who in all the earth can boast that he is clean? How much less is man, who is but a worm in his sight? “ (Job chapter25 verse 4,6). Eighty times in the Bible it is mentioned that Jesus is the son of man. “I the son of man. Feast and drink” (Matthew chapter11 verse 19).


Only fourteen times the Bible mentioned Jesus is the Son of God. God is almighty and clean. Actually God cannot be unclean and act as human do. A human child is born from his mother’s womb through the reproductive organ with clot of blood in an indecent way; A God cannot born through such ugly way. If we go through Bible we see Jesus (peace be upon him) did acts as human body does. Such as eat, drink and sleep, ”But I eat my food and drink my wine, and you say, what a glutton Jesus is!“(Luke 8 verse 34). He slept as we do,” But Jesus was asleep”(Matthew8 verse-24). Can we say him a thirsty God? ‘I am Thirsty”(John20 verse 28).”When Jesus was eight days old he was circumcised”? (Luke chapter 2 verse 21). God was circumcised? If we take these into account then it can easily be said that Jesus did drink water. So naturally he had to urinate. Even He became a little bit intoxicated after drinking wine. That’s mean He lost His natural consciousness for some time. And when he was asleep He also lost all the senses during that period. So everybody can ask what would be the consequence of the universe when God is asleep? Basically God is Almighty but nevertheless He cannot do two things i.e. He cannot create another God and He cannot throw out anybody out of His Kingdom. Actually Jesus (PBUH) was not God but prophet. Jesus said, “I am not making up this answer to your question! It is the answer given by the Father who sent me. I am telling you these things now while I am still with you---“. (John14, verses 24). Jesus (Peace be upon him) as a prophet sought help from His Lord. And the Lord is ALLAH, THE ALMIGHTY. Jesus asked help from Allah when he was said to be crucified said, ”Eli, Eli lama Sabachthani”(Matthew27 verse 46.) means Allah, Allah have u forsaken me? ELI, ELI is Hebrew language that is Allah, Allah. Even in the Holy Quran this Will a God ask help from another God? It is very interesting to note that Jesus had indicated about a Comforter who would teach the mankind, -“ But when the Father send the Comforter instead of me, and by the Comforter I mean the Holy Sprit- he will teach you much, as well as remind you of everything I myself have


told you “. (John14, verses 24,25,26). We all know ISLAM is derived from the Arabic root "SALEMA": means peace, purity. And Muhammad (Peace be upon him) preached Islam. Peace and comfort are in a sense intertwined. So naturally it can be said he who preached Islam that is peace was the peacemaker or COMFORTER. Even in the holy Quran the sign of Muhammad(SM) that were predicted by the early prophets are mentioned, “Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honor him and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful” (ARAF, verse157). Allah said in the Quran, “The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they


are turned away!”(Al-Maida verse75) Allah said about Jesus, “ And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the holy Spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?”(BAQARA-verse87).Allah said Jesus was not killed but taken away, “That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah";but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. ”(Sura Nisa4:157-158)


But it is a pity to note that the original scripture that was given to Jesus was wrongly practiced and altered its contextual sprit. Now we see many editions of the Bible. And these are textually different from one another. For example The Holy Bible Douay Version, which are followed by the Roman Catholic version .The Christian Protestants believe on the King James Version. King James not God almighty authorizes this version such a way Bible got corrupted. So some errors are found in the Bible.Here are two examples among many. “Solomon owned forty thousand chariot horses and employed twelve thousand charioteers”(King1, Chapter 4,Verse26). In another place Bible mentioned, “Solomon had 4000 stalls of horses and chariots-“(Cronicles2, Chapter9, Verse25). “-Israel is my eldest son”(Exodus5 verse22).“-- and Ephraim is my oldest child” (Jeremiah31, verse 9). Not only these errors even Bible mistakenly glorified some known person more than Jesus Bible described that person as such; “This Melchizedek was king of the city salem, and also a priest of the most High God. Melchizedek’s had no father or mother and there is no record of any of his ancestors. He was never born and he never died”(Hebrews Chapter 7 verse 1 to 3). But Jesus had a beginning, and he had a mother. The original scripture that was reveled to Jesus got misinterpreted in the passage of time. And now Christians of different sect follow different Bibles. They follow versions of different men. Not the scripture revealed by Allah. Allah mentioned this corruption in the Holy Quran, “Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented. We ordained it not for them. Only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers”(Al hadid, verse 27).“Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decree a thing, He said unto it only: Be! and it is.And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.”(Quran;Sura Mary; verses 33—36) Allah gave message through revelation since the birth of man till humanity attained maturity i.e. from the Prophet Adam (PBUH) till Muhammad. Muslims do not only believe in the Prophet hood of Muhammad (Sm) but Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus. The Holy Quran lies down, ‘And those who believe in has been revealed to you & and what has been revealed before you’. Thus belief in previous history is mandatory & is a fundamental of the faith. Allah bestowed His messages in a series one after another according to the improvement and maturity of the human society. And final concluded by sending the last Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) when people attained full maturity. Islam dates back to the edge of Adam and its message have been conveyed to man by God's Prophets and Messengers including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Islam's message has been restored and enforced in the last stage of the religious evolution by God's last Prophet and Messenger Muhammad. Islam Is the religion of every human child that is born, according to the Holy Prophet, who, to accurate, is not the originator, but the latest exponent of that Devine system which was made perfect at his advent, And, according to the Holy Quran, Islam is the natural religion of man: ‘The nature made by Allah is which He has made men; there is no alerting of Allah’s creation, -that is the right religion’ (30:30), And since, according to the Holy Quran, Prophets were raised among different nations in different ages, & the religion of every true Prophet was in its pristine purity no other than Islam, the scope of the religion in the true sense of the word, extends as far back & is as wide as humanity itself, the fundamental


principles always remaining the same, the accidents changing with the changing needs of humanity. The latest phase of Islam is that which made its appearances in the world with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) “This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM. “(Quran Al-Maida verse 3) The Holy Prophet do not preach any new fangled doctrine or introduce much that was not made known before but their teachings are infect a confirmation of what had gone before them, The Quran declares, “ None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar; know you not that Allah has power over all things? “(Sura Baqara; verse 106). Thus Quran is the inclusion of all the scriptures sends before with more details.


“ And strive for Allah with the endeavor which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting Friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!”(QURAN Sura Hajj; verse78). Muslims respect and revere Jesus (SAW) and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation. The Quran describes the Annunciation as follows: 'Behold!' the Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and shall be of the righteous.'She said: 'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: 'Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He says to it, "Be!" and it is.' (Quran, 3.42-7) Jesus (SAW) was born miraculously through the same power, which had brought Adam (SAW) into being without a father:Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was. (3.59) During his prophetic mission Jesus (SAW) performed many miracles. The Quran tells us that he said:'I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave.' (3.49) Neither Muhammad (SAW) nor Jesus (SAW) came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by earlier prophets, but to confirm and renew it. In the Quran Jesus (SAW) is reported as saying that he came:'To attest the law which was before me. And to make lawful to you paff of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey Me.' (3:5O)


The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: 'Whoever believes there is no god but God, alone without partner, that Muhammad (SAW) is His messenger, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, His word breathed into Mary and a spirit emanating from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven.'(Hadith from Bukhari). So we the whole mankind should follow the instruction of Allah. Allah said:


110 Establish worship, and pay the poor due; and whatever of good ye


send before (you) for your souls, ye will find it with Allah. Lo! Allah


is Seer of what ye do.


111 And they say: None enter Paradise unless he is a Jew or a Christian. These are their own desires. Say: Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful. 112 Nay, but whosoever surrender his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.


113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.


114 And who doth greater wrong than he who forbidden the approach to the sanctuaries of Allah lest His name should be mentioned therein, and strive for their ruin? As for such, it was never meant that they should enter them except in fear. Theirs in the world is ignominy and theirs in the Hereafter is an awful doom.


115 Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's countenance. Lo! Allah is All Embracing, All Knowing.


116 And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a Son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.


117 The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decrees a thing, He said unto it only: Be! and it is.


118 And those who have no knowledge say: Why doth not Allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those (who were) before them. Their hearts are all alike. We have made clear the revelations for people who are sure.


119 Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a Warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell fire.


120 And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou should follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper Actually besides their blaming each other we have to come to the truth. And the truth is:(Al –Baqara).


“The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His will): nor did the people of the Book dissent there from except through envy of each other after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.”(Sura Al Imran-Vesrse 19)


And “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things”(Sura Al Ahjab-verse-40).


In this present day world we all have to obey the Quranic instructions including the followings:


“Invite (all) to the way of their Lord with wisdom and beautiful Preaching, and reason with them in ways that are Best and Most gracious(Quran 16;125)


“O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.”( Quran,4.29}


“Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant.”(Quran suraAraf.199)


“Repel evil with that which is better. We are best Aware of that which they allege.”(Quran; Muminun: 96)


“O ye who believe! why say you that which you do not?”


3 “It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that ye say that which ye do not.”(Quran; Sura61: 2,3)


4 “Whoso intervene in a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whoso interveneth in an evil cause will bear the consequence thereof. Allah oversees all things.”(Quran;sura Nisa 4 verse;85).


“ Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah love the good.”


(Quran Sura no3: 134)


“O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.”


(Sura Maida; 5:8).


“Fill the measure when ye measure, and weigh with a right balance; that is meet, and better in the end.”(Sura Bani Israel: 35).


“Turn not thy cheek in scorn toward folk, nor walk with pertness the land. Lo! Allah love not each braggart boaster.”


“Be modest in thy bearing and subdue thy voice. Lo! in harshest of all voices is the voice of the ass.”(Sura Lokman31; 18-19)


“O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you,


in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.”(Sura Hujrat49 verse13).


“Here is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who reject false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”(Sura.Baqara: 256)


“Work not confusion in the earth after the fair ordering (thereof), and call on Him in fear and hope. Lo! the mercy of Allah is nigh unto the good.”(Sura araf; 7:56)’


“Allah love not mischief.(Baqara.”205).


“He give wisdom unto whom He will, and he unto whom wisdom is given, he truly hath received abundant good. But none remember except men of understanding.”(SuraBaqara: 269).


.

[abeer]

that's a v.good topic


i wish you would split it and orgnize it to be easier to read.

[vandriver]

Well, it seems that Isa al-Masih (pbuh) is not just an ordinary prophet, since he will return at the end of the world, and the writings do not say that any other prophet will do this!


It seems to me that there is something very unusual about him, and I notice that this site has more to say on the topic:


www.openmysite.com/firminallah


blessings

[vandriver]

Sorry, that URL is:


http://openmysite.com/firmanallah/

[amikula]

Hi there!


Interesting topic, Safayat. I am amazed that it is even thinkable for God(Allah), high and perfect as he is, to lower himself to the level of man. It is the same problem that we all have - how is it at all possible for us to bridge the gap between humans and God?


In regard to your discussion, I completely agree that the whole idea of God being man is beyond our thinking. God is God and he can do anything - he is certainly not confined to our human limitations. But part of his complete freedom is the ability to do whatever he likes - even to temporarily and purposefully restrict his abilities to that of a human. It doesn't mean that God became weak and fallible and lost his abilities - he simply decided not to use them.


Now even if he could, why would God want to do such a thing? The way I see it is thus: God saw the sin of humanity, and knew that no matter how hard we try to follow the laws he gave us, no matter how righteous we try to be, we are still offensive to God and deserve his judgement. Now God loves us more than we can imagine, so he decided to come in human form as Jesus(Isa), to bring people back to himself (John 3:16). He "took the form of a bondservant, and the likeness of men...and humbled himself" (Philippians 2:5-11), so that there would be a way for humans to know what God was like. The reason Jesus calls himself the "Son of Man" is because he wants to show us that we are no longer separated from God, but he is here with us, and understands our experiences.


Jesus came so that he could be a "priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 7:17), which means he was someone who could mediate between us and God. Safayat, you forgot to include the end of Hebrews 7:3 where it says Melchizedek "having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God[Jesus], remains a priest continually." This does not elevate Melchizedek above Jesus, but it does seem to imply that Jesus is still alive today...


I'd be interested to hear your opinions on this.


Blessings, Adrian

[Muslimah]

Hi amikula


first off welcome to the boards


I know u r waiting for Safayat's opinion but can I just pop in.


<b>"It doesn't mean that God became weak and fallible and lost his abilities - he simply decided not to use them"</b>


why under any circumstances I would woship a god who decided for a fraction of a second not to use his powers through which supposedly this universe is running. While he was not using them, who functioned, who kept the skies erect not to fall on earth, who kept mountains pinned so that earth would not bend under our feet, who commanded day and night to alternate, who commanded angle of death to work rather than messing up taking souls of those who are not supposed to die, who sent down rain O I can go on forever.


I will simply for the sake of this conversation agree with u on the love part of god, but why a god would want to humiliate himself, demean himself, become powerless, just to bring his own creation and servant back to him? wouldnt a god have a better way of doing it. Besides the sacrifice was even in vain, since remained those who didnt come back as we Muslims and Jews.


I can say more but let us take it point by point


Insh aAllah I wish that your stay with us will be as beneficial as possible for u

[lifutushi]

assalaamualaikum.,


one question amikula, i really confused about this, if God want to forgive the sins of mankind, why didn't He just forgave, why must He sent Jesus(pbuh), wait for years, then sacrifice Him?


God is the Almighty, and we are His creations, He could forgave us just like that if he wish, right?

[amikula]

Excellent question, Muslimah.


Sorry I've taken ages to reply to this forum, I've just been too busy.


Let me clarify: I do not mean that while Jesus was on earth, no-one was running the universe. Certainly God must keep every aspect of creation functioning in perfect order, or the universe would fall over.


This is my thinking: if God is all-powerful, then surely he is not constrained by time.


Let me ask you this: how can God listen to the prayers of thousands of people in different places in the world, all at the same time? How can God sustain our vast universe at the same time? How is it that God can tell the future to prophets in who are the present?


God can enter into our frame of time whenever He wants to, and He can be in different places at the same time. Isn't it possible, therefore, that God could both appear in human form as Jesus, at the *same* time as upholding the universe?


And the other question: why would God, even if He could do such a thing, actually choose to do sacrifice Jesus? Is there no easier way? Well think for a moment what it would mean for God to simply forgive everyone.... He would have to forgive some very evil people, like Hitler... people who were cruel and inhumane, and obviously deserve to be punished. If God forgave people like that, then what would that say about His sense of justice? So you say, ok, not the really bad people like Hitler, but how about God forgives everyone else? Well is there *anyone* on earth who was perfect - without sin? If there were, then God could forgive such people, without being unjust. But if God forgives people who *have* sinned (such as me), then is he not being unjust?


So really it comes down to God's justice... he had to find a way to be perfectly just, while at the same time forgiving sinful humans. It is my belief that through Jesus, God was able to do this... to forgive everyone who believes in Jesus, yet retain his complete justice. It is a complicated topic, so just ask if you want me to clarify it.


Blessings


Adrian

[wel_mel_2]

Assalamo Ala manitab'al- huda.


amikula..

This is my thinking: if God is all-powerful, then surely he is not constrained by time.
Let me ask you this: how can God listen to the prayers of thousands of people in different places in the world, all at the same time? How can God sustain our vast universe at the same time? How is it that God can tell the future to prophets in who are the present?


God can enter into our frame of time whenever He wants to, and He can be in different places at the same time. Isn't it possible, therefore, that God could both appear in human form as Jesus, at the *same* time as upholding the universe?

why dont you let your Bible iterpret itself ?


the new testament refers many times to Jesus as God's servant, see mathew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased......


now read Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAS approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


i dont know if you can see the difference now between the words MAN and GOD.


how then could Jesus (pbuh) be God's servant and God at the same time ? if God can do ANYTHING as you claimed, then He should use His Godly character to explain to us and not to leave us confuse like that.. remeber your Bible also said that God is not the author of confusion. and yet TRINITY confused everybody.. so who is the author of this confusion ?


also read this please.. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast SENT ME.


now you will deduce that if God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost form one unity of the Trinity, then with the disciples included they should form a God unity of FIFTEEN (15) persons and not only three..


now its better if you quote us from the lips of Jesus Christ (pbuh) where he say i am God in human form or i am God incarnate or where doese he say worship me, open your Bible and check out the teaching of Jesus Christ concerning this matter. i just want ONE VERSE, and again please quote ONLY verses which Jesus (pbuh) himself is the speaker.. not somebody else interpretation.


at this point let me mention what the Qur'an says about Trinity.. 5:73


"they disbelieve who say: Allah is one of three "in trinity" for there is no god except One God. if they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them."


is this not what is mentioned in the Law (Torah/Old testament) of Moses whithin the meaning of the first commandment- the oneness of God, which Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill, as conveyed strongly in John 5


46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.


47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Moses (pbuh) spoke of no trinity, neither did Jesus! sso why should you?

So really it comes down to God's justice... he had to find a way to be perfectly just, while at the same time forgiving sinful humans. It is my belief that through Jesus, God was able to do this... to forgive everyone who believes in Jesus, yet retain his complete justice. It is a complicated topic, so just ask if you want me to clarify it.

again let your bible speak of itself..


did any one of the disciples or the writers of the Gospel see the crucifixion or the resurrection ? the answer is NO..


in Mark 14:50 it says the disciples forsook jesus and fled, Even peter forsook jesus after the cock crowed three times as Jesus foretold in Mathew 26:75.


# 2 you remember the prayers of Jesus to God for help in Luke 22


42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God according to Luke 22:43 and Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;


therefore if all of Jesus's prayers were accepted by God, including not to die on the cross, how could he have died on the cross ?????


and lastly.. do you know that the doctrine of atonment was accepted by the church three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth ? read Deureronomy 24:16, Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekil 18:20 and you will see that this doctrine of atonement contradicts the old law of Moses..


Deuteronomy 24


16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


Jeremiah 31


30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: .............


Ezekiel 18


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Further Jesus states in Mark 11:25-26 and in Luke 11:1-4 that trespasses "sins" are forgiven by God. so there is no reason for Jesus' atonement of sins.


Mark 11


25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.


26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Luke 11


1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.


2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.


3 Give us day by day our daily bread.


4 And FORGIVE US OUR SINS; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


once again Jesus came not to destroy the law, it was Paul who abolished the Mosaic Law, please read Acts 13


39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


The 'authority' that paul amassed allowed him to claim that the blessings of the Gospel were not limited to the jews, but to all who believed. this also is an absolute contradiction to the mission, purpose and teaching of Jesus. Jesus' true message was the law. the same law that guided Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah and all the other prophets, to include the prophet of Isalm Muhammad who was also prophesied in the jews and the christians gospels as mentioned in the Qur'an.


and enough for now i hope that help Inshaa ALlah.


salam


wel_mel

[lifutushi]

Assalamua'alaykum....


i'd like to start our REAL discussion here with several differences from Qur'an vs Bible, regarding God's attributes:


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Does God Forget ?


Why do you forget us forever, why do you so long forsake us?



[Lam. 5:20]


How long O Lord ? will you forget me forever.


[Psalm 13:1]


(The angels say:) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget "



[Quran 19:64]


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Does God Sleep ?


Awake, why do you sleep, O Lord?



[Psalm. 4:23]


Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouts by reason of wine.


[Psalm. 4:23]


Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).



[Quran 2:255]


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Can anyone in this life see God face to face ?!


Jacob wrestled God who said to him, "Let me go; for the day is breaking" But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me. And he said to him,"What is your name? And he said "Jacob" Then the Lord said, "Your name shall be no more called Jacob but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed. Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray your name. But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?



And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place "Pen'el" saying: For I have seen God face to face."


[Gen. 32:22]


No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.



[Quran 6:103]


When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."


[Quran 7:143]


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Does God Need to Refresh ?!


For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.



[Exo. 31:17]


We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.



[Quran 50:38]


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Does God Knows everything happening ?


And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are thou?



[Gen. 3:8,9]


With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).



[Quran 6:59]


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Does God regret ?


And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. [he said]: "For I am sorry that I have made them."



[Gen 6:6,7]


The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.



[Quran 6:115]


But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).


[Quran 35:39]


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Does God order people to commit sins ?


When the Lord first spoke to Hose'a he said to him, "GO TAKE TO YOURSELF A WIFE OF HARLOTRY and have children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by forsaking the Lord."



[Hos. 1:2]


God said to the children of Israel, "Every woman shall BORROW of her neighbour jewels of silver and gold, and remaint, and you shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters and you shall spoil the Egyptians.


[Exo. 3:22]


So they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels and remaint: And the Lord gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.


[Exo.12:35]


When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"



[Quran 7:28]


Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is indecent: Do you say of Allah what you know not? "


[Quran 7:28]


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Is it Justice to accuse the children of their fathers' sins ?


I am the Lord, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations.



[Deut. 5:7]


Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.


[isiah 14:21]


And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. Slay utterly old and young both maids and little children, and woman.


[Ezek. 9:5]


Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear th burden of another.



[Quran 6:164]


The Prophet Mohamad said to his army before going to a fight "Depart in the name of Allah, and by his help. And kill not any old man nor young boy nor child, nor woman, But be good doers for Allah loves those who do good."


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Wallahu 'alam......


i hope this one would be a healthy discussion, not where emotions and hatred thrown onto each other......Insha Allah.....