Pride: Islam's Worst Enemy

[Peace in Ireland]

It has taken me a while to come to this conclusion, but I believe it is well formed from my discussions with people on this board over the past however long I've been on this forum. I also draw from muslims I know, both friends and non-friends of mine. My thesis I guess you would say, is that a zealous need for pride and honor is the most destructive thing in Islam (as well as in Judaism and Christianity.)


I have heard many a person on this forum state that honor is more desireable than peace. That they would rather fight until the death before they compromise with the Jews (or Zionists as racist Muslims seem to refer to all Jews as.) They would rather have the blood of their children running in the streets if they could have the satisfaction of "winning." This is not only true for Islam, but for the other two Abrahamic religions as well, but for the sake of discussion (since this is a Muslim message board) I'll stick to how it affects Islam.


The conflict in the middle-east, to most Americans, seems rediculous. It's two people who look alike, live in the same area, and share a common ancestor fighting over a piece of land the size of New Jersey. Both sides refuse to budge. The Jews want Isreal to be a sovereign nation and to spread. The Muslims want Isreal wiped off the face of the earth. When outsiders hear Muslims on TV or radio or see them in print talking about how Allah is commanding them to fight the good fight and they will relinquish nothing to the Jews, it makes the outsider less likely to care what happens with the whole situation. What seems to get lost in all the dialogue in the middle-east situation is that no matter what happens, the Jews and the Muslims are going to have to live together NO MATTER WHAT. You'll never rid the world of Jews and you'll never rid the world of Muslims. Eventually, both sides will have to stop placing their own egotistical pride and honor about peace and settle down and talk.


Think about it this way. Two men are in a bar fight, we'll call them Bill and Mike. Bill is punching and swearing at Mike, whereas Mike is trying to block Bill's punches and saying "Bill. Why do you seek to hurt me? Can we not settle this peacefully?" Who do you think outsiders are more likely to take sides with? A raging violent alcoholic? Or a rational, calm, peace-seeking Mike? When I see Arab Muslims on TV talking of jihad and "getting back" at the Jews, I can only think of one word to describe them. Stupid. Has jihad ever worked? Do you think that bombing the Jews will make the Jews less likely to attack you again? How about what the outside world thinks? How does that make you look to America, Europe, East Asia?


Islam has a chance to rise above the hatred they see in Judaism. It called taking the moral high-ground. Sometimes, you have to suck it up and take one for the team. I can only thing of the Dalai Lama. A man who's country was invaded and taken over by the Chinese; millions of Tibetans killed and tortured. If he were waging terrorist attacks on the Chinese from his home in India, would he be in any better shape? WOuld Tibet all of a sudden become his? No. His Holiness instead acted peacefully and reached out to the outside world. Tibet now has millions of people all over the globe sympathetic to the Tibetan cause, simply because the Tibetans had no pride to defend, only peace. I am Irish-American. Ireland and England have been, essentially, at war for the past 600 years (if not more.) Pride is what fuels the IRA the Ulster Unionists. Peacefull effort to mend the wounds of the Irish and British are always thwarted by Irish and British terrorists, and both Islands are worse off because of it.


The point it, pride and honor are not more important than peace. Jews have too much pride; they refuse to share a nation with the Muslims. Muslims have too much pride; many of them have a near insane hatred for the Jews and want to constantly "win." Christians have too much pride; they have carried out crusades against millions of people just because they thought their way was the right way.


A lot of you will probably say "But you can't possibly understand the situation. You're not a Muslims or a Jew." or "You are just ignorant. You have not seen the light of Islam." But perhaps it is my inability to see the light that keeps me from becoming blind to reason and sanity.


As a post-script, I think it goes without saying (however, I'm saying it. Funny huh?) that OF COURSE not all Muslims place pride over peace. I know pleanty of muslims from the middle-east and Africa who just want peace and don't care how it comes about. It's easy to call for death for honor if you aren't the one strapping on a pack of dynamite. A Sudanese friend of mine who fled the Arab militias of Sudan said to me once something along the lines of "the Arabs came and bruned my village, so I was very mad at them. But then, I realized I was more mad at the violence itself. I wish I could tell the Arabs that I was willing to live in peace with them, and there was no reason to be fighting."


There is NO reason to place pride and honor above peace. Freud would call you a sociopath or an egotists.


Salaam.

[umm Zachariah]

'He whose sin is due to desires, then have hope for him. And he whose sin is due to pride, then fear for him - because Adam disobeyed due to desire and was forgiven, and Iblis sinned due to pride and was cursed.' Sufyan ibn Uyainah.

[Peace in Ireland]

Amen

[radiyah]

Peace

A lot of you will probably say "But you can't possibly understand the situation. You're not a Muslims or a Jew." or "You are just ignorant. You have not seen the light of Islam." But perhaps it is my inability to see the light that keeps me from becoming blind to reason and sanity.

I will not answer except may Allah show u the light of ISLAM, and only then u will


understand what we mean.

How about what the outside world thinks? How does that make you look to America, Europe, East Asia?

We dont care what others think, what did America or europe or east asia bring to us muslims but grief by occupieng our lands in name of democracy, and because they hate the jews and want to get rid of them they implanted them in our country. Can't u c that the europeans got rid of the jews by sending them to Palestine, killing and massacaring with no mercy. I am not propagating here for violence or hatred against any1, except that this is our land that has been stolen from us by force and we must have it back. I am not a palestenian, I am a muslim who will stand along with her brothers and sister in palestine who are being killed daily, their houses devastated, children killed young girls raped, trees are cut off, and u want us to sit down and tel the jews yes thanku here kill us more. Peace treaties are being put for years since palestine occupied, what happened? more killing and more palestenian land occupied.


Now let us say that u r sleeping peacfuly in your home, enjoying life then out of nowhere a theif came to your house, started killing your children raping your wife and daughters, what would u do ? u will keep quiet and tell him come we will compromise i will give u half of my home and we will live in peace? do u think he will accept, he is nothing but a murderer and a theif, even if he agrees at first later he will swallow u and your whole family and takes over your house. And that is what Israel is doing, and continuing to do. So we allow no compromises, we want all of palestine back even if takes our last bit of blood, or we will be cowards, just when u let the theif tke over your house and wife.

There is NO reason to place pride and honor above peace. Freud would call you a sociopath or an egotists.

You should be smarter than that peace, by making freud a person that we would care about it. we do not care what any human being says about us, he is only a human like us, we care only if our Lord and creator is pleased with us or not.


Again I hope u c the light, but u won't c it if u only study it from the point of view of anti arabs and muslims.


Enjoy these 2 articles with pictures


http://www.harunyahya.com/palestine11.php


http://www.harunyahya.com/solutions10.php


This is happening and u want us to ask for peace











peace

[islam_enlightment]

Salam Alaikum

How does that make you look to America, Europe, East Asia?

Well this is what the outside world think of Muslims





Grozny, by Russia





Rafah , by Israel





Baghdad, by America


Now tell me, does the world like Islam?

[Peace in Ireland]

You're missing the point entirely. I sympathize with people trying to gain their freedom. Palestinians, Chechins, Northern Irish, and American Indians. What I'm trying to say is that the way Islam goes about gaining its independence and freedome is counerproductive. Look at Chechnya. They recently invaded a Russian grammar school and killed hundreds of children (Russia was also responsible for this atrocity.) Does killing a bunch of kids make people more sympathetic to your cause? Does slandering an entire ethnic group with xenophobic slurs make people support your cause more?


Contrary to what many people believe, we do not live in ancient times anymore. No one nation can do anything alone, and everyone's actions affect one another. In the days of long ago, Celts could wage a civil war, and it did not affect the Nubians one bit. Today, countries that go it alone (i.e., the United States) end up worse off and more hated than before. Look at the U.S. in Iraq. Bush thought that the U.S. was being threatened by Iraq, so he bombed it to bits. Did the rest of the world become sympathetic to the American cause? No! In fact, most of the Western World (out old allies) and pretty much ALL of the rest hates the U.S. Palestine IS dependent on what the rest of the world thinks, because the events in the middle-east affect practically everyone. Jews in Brooklyn, Jews in Europe, Arabs and Muslims in America, etc.


A problem Islam has (which it shares with the United States) is that it cares not what the rest of the world thinks and if refuses to accept that we live in a cosmopolis.


In my efforts for Irish independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, I went from supporting the militant IRA, to denouncing them. And in doing so, I've found a larger audience for my cause. Ireland can hash it out with England all it wants, but its who makes the most allies who will win (recall the old saying, "you catch more bees with honey.") If Palestine is to free its people and live in harmony with Isreal, it needs to make friends FAST. Honestly, I do not care for Isreal. They use U.S. made weapons, displace thousands of native people, and support corrupt governments. But I'll tell you one thing, strapping on a stick of dynamite isn't going to stop Isrealis from shooting a missile at your house. It will only make them want to do it more.


The people I'd admire are Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King Jr., all of whom made huge progress for their people through sound reasoning and sanity. I suggest some of the more radical of you try it.


Salaam. And when I say that, I truely mean "PEACE." It seems oxymoronic to say salaam and support violence.

[naseeha]

Ok lemme see.. I understand what Peace in Ireland is saying and what everyone else is saying. I think that Peace in Ireland has good intentions. u seem to really want peace and this is commendable. however i dont think that u understand some crucial things about the very heart of a muslim.... by this i mean his inner souls.


Muslims are very strong in the concept of brother hood.. so when non muslims see the killins of the palestinians what they say is... "i feel hurt for those people" or i sympathise with those people"


But when a muslims sees it we say "I feel hurt for <b>MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS</b>" do u see the difference. the killing of those over there is as hurtful to us as if someone would kill our own brother OUR OWN FLESH AND BLOOD can u imagine that... woooww.. someone shooting your own family... when u understand that u would understand the muslims....


now on the other hand... we must all take into consideration that <b>FACT</b> that we have <b>NO IDEA</b> about the plight of the palestinians.


and this is where i understand Peace in Ireland's Point of view.. does the above statements that i made justify killing Jews let alone.. innocent jews...


we are all muslims and therefore bound by the laws of allah given to us in the quran and expounded in the sunnah...


is it a practise to the Prophet to kill the jews...


did the prophet kill the jews that asked him all those questions????


so Peace in Ireland i agree with u to an extent.. but as far as jihad is concerned.. i dont think that u should rule it out...


but it should come after they have tried peace... just as the probped did. Remember the command for Jihad came after a long while right


if the paletinians have all tried negotiations which we know to be true... then jihad is the only recourse...


there is no sense in trying peace over and over without result. action must be taken...


this is where u must understand our position...


as far as those who say "JIHAD AND KILL THE JEWS" they should say those things referring to the jews that have wronged the muslims and those who clearly do these atrocities. NOT THE INNOCENT ONES...


also they should be organised.... One man fighting an army is futile.. they need to structure..


so in conclusion.. i say... YES TRY PEACE... But Jihad has it's part to play.... so Peace in Ireland dont rule it out.. sometimes you may here such things... but please try to understand our postition while understanding our emotions.


Wouldn't you be Highly emotional if someone killed your brother...


raped your sister...


salaams all... hope you all understood me

[islam_enlightment]

Peace In Ireland, I didn't mean that you supported them, or had no symphathy, but let's be rational, the War on Islam, has made no purpose, no sence, people talk about 911 and say Afghanistan was right to invade. Expect more Muslim nations to be invaded because of Terrorism.


Think in early 1930s the Reich Stag in Berlin (like a congress) was burnt down, Hitler then told the People that he will take control of everything to stop that terrorist attacks on Germany, and the German people believed it was done by terrorism, already they gave up their freedom and they all thought that the pre emptive strikes against the enemies will stop the terrorists (conquest of Austria to Czech republic to Poland) because of terrorism. Well Hitler burnt the Reich Stag, fooled the people and made the people support him for his murderous plans of conquest.


Dejevu? That is what happening in America, The US government has enough power for pre emptive strikes against nations, but I wont go as far to say that 911 was an inside job, only the truth knows...

[NaSra]

From 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood radiallaahu 'anhu who related that Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said:


<b>"He who has in his heart the weight of a mustard seed of pride shall not enter Paradise.
So a man said: What about a person who loves (i.e. takes pride in) wearing beautiful clothes and beautiful shoes? So he replied: "Indeed Allaah is beautiful and loves beauty. Kibr (pride) is to reject the truth, and to despise the people."</b>

[Peace in Ireland]

Peace In Ireland, I didn't mean that you supported them, or had no symphathy, but let's be rational, the War on Islam, has made no purpose, no sence, people talk about 911 and say Afghanistan was right to invade. Expect more Muslim nations to be invaded because of Terrorism.
Think in early 1930s the Reich Stag in Berlin (like a congress) was burnt down, Hitler then told the People that he will take control of everything to stop that terrorist attacks on Germany, and the German people believed it was done by terrorism, already they gave up their freedom and they all thought that the pre emptive strikes against the enemies will stop the terrorists (conquest of Austria to Czech republic to Poland) because of terrorism. Well Hitler burnt the Reich Stag, fooled the people and made the people support him for his murderous plans of conquest.


Dejevu? That is what happening in America, The US government has enough power for pre emptive strikes against nations, but I wont go as far to say that 911 was an inside job, only the truth knows...

Trust me, I am by no means a supporter of U.S. foreign policy. I believe the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq were both wrong.


I see where Naseeha is coming from. I recognize that Islam has a very strong "brotherhood." I, in my personal beliefs, do not see the world in such a way. The difference between my biological brother and a homeless man in Iraq is zero.


However, entertain this possibility. Would it not be better to have an outside body that understands the situation in the middle-east, yet has very little stake in it, implement a solution? Think about this: when there is a dispute amoung neighbors in the United States, often to neighbors go to arbitration where a 3rd party who is as impartial as possible mediates and negotiates a deal. As Naseeha says, both Jews and Muslims are enraged with passion in this dispute. Thus, I believe both are incapable of finding a middle ground or a way to work things out. America is no good either. We are too involved with the politics of Isreal to be fair. The arab nations are not fit for the job either, as they will likely side with the Muslims. Nations with the resources to mediate should do so. Sweden, the Netherlands, Japan, etc. are possible options (thought I'm not sure if either of those has strong ties to Isreal or Palestine.)


Attracting a mediator will be extemely difficult if at least one side doesn't get its act together and start acting non-violently. In the neighbor/arbitration analogy I used earlier; if one neighbor is completely unwavering and hostile to any suggestion by the other side, the arbitrator with simply refuse to step in and help. This, due to actions by Muslims and Jews, is why, to speak plainly, nobody gives two s**ts about the middle-east. However, if the Islamic people are to rise above the cowardice perpetrated by the Isreali terrorist government, helping hands may be offered.