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Abrogation
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10-24-2005, 12:06 AM
Bismillah Pls feel free to ask questions regarding this last post, since it is a very important point and Alhamdulelah I tried my best with Allah's assistance to explain. so if still ambigous pls ask Insh a Allah will try to further explain.
10-24-2005, 05:16 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-24-2005, 05:22 AM by reepicheep.)
Muslimah wrote: > reepi, I d really appreciate it if u can post > the link from where u got the hadeeth. OK, here's one example. If you like, I can provide more websites for you. The main web page for "The Muslim Student Association" at "The University of Southern California" can be found here: Islamic Server of MSA-USC Their website contains lots of information about Islam. If you click on the link SUNNAH in the upper left of the above web page, you will end up here: Sunnah and Hadith which contains links to many hadith collections, including Sahih Bukhari. The main page for the Bukhari hadith can be found here: Translation of Sahih Bukhari On the above page, to find Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 118, click on the following link: 60 Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) which takes you to book 60. Scan down that page until you get to the 118th hadith. The following link will take you straight to Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 118: Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 118 Quote:Bismillah Muslimah i am sorry i understand the satanic verses situation as well as one can. I read your explination over three times and i do not understand what you're saying, i just don't grasp what your saying and i re read it three times. May i suggest it's easier to find out why Mohammed spoke the words of Shaitan and then took those words back if you look into Islamic history. Look what Mohammed was trying to acheive, why he would say what he did and then why he took the words back, then why Allah made him feel better for saying what he did. Shaitan made him say what he did which at first made the Mecca locals embrace him, then later the verses were abrogated because shaitan made him say them. Yet conveiniently, those mecan locals embraced Islam from those Satanic verses praising their Gods. Then were later insulted when mohammed said "Shaitan made me say it" realising he made a gross error trying to entice people by acknowledging other gods. The other idols which they worshipped, Allah being the main one. Even at Ask Imam.org (one of the biggest ilsmaic q&a sites on the internet) they had the satanic verses question and the imam simply responded by saying "all we know is shaitan tricked Mohammed into reciting these words as revelation ...and allah knows best" (i used to have the link on this forum i dont know where it is now) Theres no need to try and find somekind of explination which must explain it Muslimah, it's right in front of you sister. You shouldnt have to do back flips and re wording or phrasing of whats there in front of you Muslimah. You have a lot of people who take important note of your words on here Muslimah. It isn't fair to do this... Unfortunately i will have no internet soon for a few days (not sure when) so if i dont respond it's because i can't get on! Most matters on here of faith i don't respond to, but when something is as clear cut as the Satanic verses and you explain it away different with a long and utterly confusing post, it seems unfair on those who may not know. The true explaination is as clear as the sun. And it looks VERY bad. This just isn't fair Muslimah.
10-24-2005, 09:33 AM
Bismillah reepi I really wish to thank u much for this change of attitude, this is what is called a constructive discussion. I was heading with this part but I received an urgent task. Insh aAllah i will get to it this evening. This allows room for us to talk and explain for u to receive the explanation from proper sources Insh a Allah which I think is what u r aiming for. Bismillah As Salam alaikum This is a nice explanation for those who really actually care about finding out about "the story of goddesses" as some call it. It is equivalent to a few pages of text, so one must actually care. One nonmuslim member had a responce posted to one of his questions and said, "You actually think I'm going to read all that?" This clearly exposed his reason for being on the board. I apologize if this excerpt is too long but I feel it supplements what muslimah is saying and may break down any language problems. http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/M...e_goddesses.htm Let me know about the link. I can tell people how to get to it via a google search as well. When discussing issues with a member, I had to explain something which I readily admit that I misspoke. I am human and do not always check my writing critically beyond just grammar. Lesson learned. I will read what I write more critically from now on, Insha'Allah. I asked if he wanted me to "fess up" publicly on the board because he felt what I had said privately was hypocritical of what I was saying on the board. After explaining myself, I was told that it was not necessary. Well since it looks like I am being quoted and quite frequently, I would like to explain publicly what I said privately. "Yes although i know muslims who have a system of filtering out genuine hadith that don't sound like they fit with the Prophets character or they are embaressed of. Some have said to me "if it doesnt sound like the Prophet would have done that then i ignore it" some Muslims i prayed with and follow Islam in every way have said this to me. However my Imam said to me once if it's in authentic Hadith we must belive it. At least he was honest." I admit that I said this statement that I would ignore something if I did not understand it. What I left out (due to my own fault) was that it would be ignored until I found someone to answer my question. I have never just not believed something was part of Islam when it has been proven to be so because I did not like it. We are warned about people who do this in the Qur'an. I search for answers. Yet, we live in a time where we as muslims must be cautious about where we get our information. I have trusted sources but they are not readily available, so delays result. As been said, other "muslims who have a system of filtering" might have said similar statements. I just wanted to publicly distance myself from the meaning of this statement. I do believe in authentic hadith. I also believe in my limited knowledge of this religion which I am working to expand in efforts to further understand this deen. The Qur'an admits to be revealed in stages. Revelations would occur during appropriate times. I see the revelation for the blindman being revealed when necessary. The blind man got to voice his desire to go out for jihad but then being exempted from it by Allah. Allah allowed a devotee to express his love and then told the man not to worry about it. Has not any of us expressed to a loved one how we would buy them something if only we had the funds? That person then says they do not need it but they understand our desires. Does it not feel good to express such emotions to someone even though we know that it is not possible? If blind people were immediately excused then the blind man would not have gotten the chance to voice his devotion to Allah. Of course this is my viewpoint, just as the disbelievers have thier viewpoint and will use what knowledge they have to present thier arguments. The Qur'an also states, "It is He Who has appointed the stars for you so you might be guided by them in the darkness for the land and sea. We have made the Signs clear for people who have knowledge" (6:97). So the stars can serve two purposes, just as a mouth can talk and chew and the nose can detect scents and breathe. So to say that muslims believe that the stars are only for warding off the shayateen is not the truth. It amazes me that humanity believes that it knows everything right now. "We can't see it so it does not exist." Nothing used to be smaller than the atom. Whoops. The nothing was smaller than proton, nuetrons, and electrons. Whoops again. We all know of many examples of this occurring through history. "As for those who reject Our Signs and are arrogant regarding them, they are the Companions of the Fire, remanining in it timelessly, forever" (7:36) "I will divert from my Signs all those who are arrogant in the earth without any right, they will not believe in it. If they see the way of right guidance, they will not take it as a way. But if they see the way of error, they will take that as a way. That is because they denied Our signs and paid no attention to them" (7:146). As Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu Bismillah Jazakum Allah khairan Dan for this link that I just skimmed thru it.
10-25-2005, 09:51 PM
Bismillah reepi sorry for this delay, i didnt ignore the point since it is an important one to address. Insh a Allah I thought it over, I will just continue more on the previous post before moving to this one in order to maintain the theme and for better understanding. I guess this is the objective.
10-27-2005, 07:42 PM
Bismillah Praise be to Allah and prayer and peace be upon His Messenger Mohamed Ibn Abdullah, his household and companions. Again on this last post addressing the Quran 22:52, the whole problem stems from the Arabic word Tamana which is translated as to recite. Here is the transliteration for better explanation: “Wa Mā 'arsalnā min qablika min Rasūlin wa Lā Nabīyin 'illā 'idhā tamanná 'alqá ash-Shayţānu fī 'umnīyatihi fayansakhu Allāhu Mā yulqī ash-Shayţānu thumma yuĥkimu Allāhu 'Āyātihi wa Allāhu `alīmun Ĥakīmun” In Arabic this word can bear the two meanings, which made many old scholars stop for a long time to have an in depth review of this part. The word can be used as read as well as wish. In this position specifically, as we explained above, it can never be used as recite. In this position Allah Is consoling the Messenger about what he is facing of difficulties, resistance, reluctance, violence and aggression of the non believers. The word Tamana here serves the sense of wishing his duty to bear the desired fruit, and conveying the message of Allah since as Allah Is comparing the situation of the Messenger salla Allah a`lyehee wa sallam with that occurred with other prophets and Messengers. As the previous post explained, this is just to confirm the meaning, the hardships faced by the messenger are referred here to with what shaytan may throw in the way to obstruct and hinder the coarse of dawa. Do you expect shaytan to stand still while people are receiving these amazing words from Allah? Of course not, he will do his utmost effort to distract them from following this guidance.
10-27-2005, 07:43 PM
Now having this said, if we look carefully at both posts 23 and 40, we will see that usually post 40 is used as ground to affirm that the Messenger salla Allah a`lyehee wa sallam was tricked by shaytan and repeated what he threw to him of Ayahs which was then abrogated when Jebreel came asking him to present what Allah revealed. Then, Mohamed salla Allah a`lyehee wa sallam recited the Quran including the added part. Jebreel explained to him that this is not from Allah and the part was then omitted. First let us see if this approach works thru the Quran itself. Allah in Quran Say:” And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah swt), * We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),* And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),” “Wa law taqawwala `alaynā ba`đa al-'Aqāwīli* La'akhadhnā minhu bil-Yamīni* Thumma Laqaţa`nā minhu al-Watīna” (Quran 69:44-46) What a serious and hard threat is this? How come then Jebreel would very easily come and just tell him no this is not from Allah let us go ahead and remove it? What kind of attitude is this? Taking Allah’s words so lightly. Looking at this threat which is very clear and direct. In case you Mohamed would dare to ascribe things to Allah which were not revealed from Allah, you punishment would be killing. I mean look at the Ayah We Will cut off the Aorta which is the life artery. Isn’t this to make him die? For what for alledging that Allah Said things? If we go to the other Ayahs in question, then we will understand exactly that this situation is an impossible. Taking in consideration the other Ayah included in post #7, we would realize how Allah Protected His word, and how the Messenger is certainly unlikely to be tricked by shatyan waliyadhubillah. Prayer and peace be upon him. Even the alleged part to be said by the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him when you read it, it is totally not in harmony with Quran text. If we even look and see what words were alleged to be added, they can never be in harmony with the previous Ayah. The Ayah in question say: "Have you then considered (the idols of the pagan Arabs:) Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza* And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third* Is it for you the males and for Him the females?* That indeed is a division most unfair!” If the Ayah ends with a statement about the division being unfair, or to be more precise the allocation is most unfair. How would the Messenger salla Allah a`lyehee wa sallam before this just does not realize what he is saying of praise to those idols? Sorry but this is most illogic. Let us take a logical approach now, I mean outside the framework of how Quran explains itself and how it is really connected with each other. How do you think that a man comes and tells people that he was tricked by shaytan and that part of what he said was not from Allah but rather thrown to him by shaytan? What reaction do you all expect from the recipients? Is it still to believe or to be totally deterred away? I say people would rather be deterred. Not only this, I would expect even those who originally followed to change their position. But amazingly enough, people continued to believe him, continued to embrace Islam, continued to follow the call. And accept it. What type of a twisted logic is this to accuse the man who at the age of 12 was questioned by the monk Baheera about the lat waluza and hobal and he immediately replied that there is nothing more hateful to his heart than those idols. How come at the age of 40 and after receiving the message in a very careful and well organized manner from Allah, to easily be tricked by shaytan. If u think for a moment, if this really occured, how did the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam managed to maintain his credibility? how was he able to verify the unfulfillment of the serious threat mentioned above? how did he explain that Jebreel took the situation so lightly? did he tell them O guys by the way, Jebreel came and corrected me on a few things? Do you think under such cirucmstances he could continue to enjoy the same level of credibilty, authenticity, responsibility and respect? The fact the matter that people continued to embrace Islam and believe the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him, that Islam spread outside the boundaries of Arabia, that Islam spread even after his death in Asia only thru role model, all this together stand as a firm proof and strong evidence that this situation never occurred and that those who were unable to properly understand the Ayah opened doors to wrong explanations. Only those who have a disease in the heart would accept this false logic. As we are all aware, this part was a subject to insertions from israilites sources only to distort and accuse the authenticity of Quran. Sorry to say, there are respected scholars who don’t exert enough effort and just take things for granted just because they heard so. Even with this assumption, old scholars of tafseer like Ibn Katheer and Qortoby totally rejected this possibilty stating that such hadeeth are very strange and can never be taken as ground for such tafseer. Alhamdulelah in this we seek nothing but Allah's satisfaction, Allah Is my witness and my only Judge. Allah Sobhanhu wa Taala carefully protected His book as well as His final Messenger from any interception of shyatan and to Allah all the due Praise that we will never be able to fulfill what Allah Is worthy of praise. |
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