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Wael, I think both FHC and Steve clearly see the point you and I are trying to make here, but they dont want to openly saying it.
As I said I discussed this point in particular, including song of the songs..etc on another thread, namely, Arabic bible, and clearly asked if christians find it fine that the bible contains porno language. One can never deny that this language is inappropriate. Once I asked a jewish woman, i worked with like 17 years ago here in Egypt, who was originally a Protestant. I asked her if she feels it fine to give her little daughter the bible, as we were discussing the culutre differences in bringing up children what to say and when. She said I know what u mean, that is why I dont consider both OT and NT as sacred books but rather legendry of the old people.
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Peace be with you!
Quote:Wael, I think both FHC and Steve clearly see the point you and I are trying to make here, but they dont want to openly saying it.
I can only speak on behalf of myself - especially considering I'm just reading the posts adressed to me & wouldn't have a clue what other conversations in this thread are about - but I feel as though I've provided a fair & adequate expression of my beliefs regarding this matter.
Quote:As I said I discussed this point in particular, including song of the songs..etc on another thread, namely, Arabic bible, and clearly asked if christians find it fine that the bible contains porno language. One can never deny that this language is inappropriate. Once I asked a jewish woman, i worked with like 17 years ago here in Egypt, who was originally a Protestant. I asked her if she feels it fine to give her little daughter the bible, as we were discussing the culutre differences in bringing up children what to say and when. She said I know what u mean, that is why I dont consider both OT and NT as sacred books but rather legendry of the old people.
Why do you so easily understand & accept this lady's view but not mine? Is it because she agrees with you & I don't? Well, I'm sorry, Muslimah, but my aim here is not to supress truth & teach error in order to seek your approval. You may not like what I have to say & that's fine, but believe me what you see is what you get - everything I've written is what I know to be true & what I live for.
If you'd like to know how Holy Mother Church deals with the issue of sex (which is not a tabu subject in the Holy Bible or in the Catholic Faith) then these links might be useful:
http://www.theologyofthebody.org/
http://www.theologyofthebody.net/
http://www.theologyofthebody.com/page.asp?ContentID=15
God bless.
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It was not a personal attack, but that is exactly what I mean. When we hear something we dislike (which is what prophets say) it is taken as a personal attack, rather than as constructive criticism and/or and impartial observation.
Prophets always say thing that people dislike, because they are more virtuous than other people. To put it in a different perspective, there are 10 commandments. Everybody can keep any number of them between 0 and 10. So what we have are various combinations:
0-10
1-9
2-8
3-7
4-6
5-5
4-6
3-7
2-8
1-9
0-10
There is quite a bit of human diversity, and within each grouping it could be a different set that are kept and broken. For example, say you and I are both 5-5. I could keep a totally different set of 5 commandments than you do, so in observing one another, we would both think ourselves better than the other, because we keep commandments that the other breaks.
Discussion then comes to be seen as an attack, when it is just a discussion of differences. I agree, however, that people do attack one another over these differences. Also, let's face it, if we agree on everything, then there is little to discuss. Which brings up the real problem of pride, groupthink, and self-righteous complacency. Every organization and religion has a baseline of its own groupthink. So those who are 5-5, and of the same 5 in and out, form a organization that is self-satisfying. Everybody shares the bias, and therefore are happy and content within their group. Of course, they won't let anybody in who isn't a 5-5 just like themselves.
So what do we end up with? It's like the three monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. They constantly cover-up anything that disrupts their worldview. But in the case of humans, there are various tribes of these monkeys: Sunni, Shite, Calvinist, Baptist, Catholic, Jew, Reformed Jew, Democrat, Republican, Monarchical, Capitalist, Socialist, Communist, Atheist, etc. The list goes on and on. Love one person but hate another.
God has his groupthink too: Love one another, follow the commandments. We are so busy comparing ourselves to one another, that we forget that the person we should be comparing ourselves to is God. He wants us to love everyone equally, without these false distinctions of labels, roles, etc. He wants us to be humble and respectful, but groupthink is never humble.
The point of every story in scripture is about our need to be at 10-0. To love when we fear. To trust faith more than reason. To forgive rather than seek revenge. To give rather than take. To be kind and gentle and patient with one another.
We need to teach our children that before we open scripture, and then use scripture to reinforce the message.
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FHC, Steve, I never meant to attach any of you, I think kate knows me better. Kate, again I m not seeking to know the churche's position of sex, sex is not a taboo either in Islam.
This is not the point, my focus, and I think this is what wael is trying to communicate to whoever is interested to answer, is that God, being the creator, the owner of universe, ..etc, when revealing divine scripture must be possessing an incomparable level of elquecy that allows him to express whatever he wants to express in a bifitting style. I m not into the implications of the story..etc. Just the writing style, again, as Wael, asked, and you actually already answered that in your childhood you didnt receive the original copy having all of this language, am I not correct?? This is the main point.
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08-03-2009, 08:46 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2009, 09:10 PM by Steve Consilvio.)
Quote:is that God, being the creator, the owner of universe, ..etc, when revealing divine scripture must be possessing an incomparable level of elquecy that allows him to express whatever he wants to express in a bifitting style.
God doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is evil in the world whose purpose is to corrupt the good.
As for what I leaned when, I am too old to remember. LOL I'm 52.
To answer your question, I doubt my kids are as familiar with the stories of the Bible as they should be. When they are old enough to knock, it will open, and it will answer their questions. I recently taught a CCD class for a week. I'm pretty sure I said things that they never heard before, yet nothing I said was new.
Revealing, as in 'revelation' is a change of perspective on the part of the reader. We need to come to God, not the other way around.
Again, this is exactly the type of argument that atheists use for why God doesn't exist. "If God is perfect, then he would do this..."
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08-04-2009, 02:12 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2009, 02:14 AM by Faith Hope Charity.)
Peace be with you!
Quote:FHC, Steve, I never meant to attach any of you, I think kate knows me better. Kate, again I m not seeking to know the churche's position of sex, sex is not a taboo either in Islam.
This is not the point, my focus, and I think this is what wael is trying to communicate to whoever is interested to answer, is that God, being the creator, the owner of universe, ..etc, when revealing divine scripture must be possessing an incomparable level of elquecy that allows him to express whatever he wants to express in a bifitting style. I m not into the implications of the story..etc. Just the writing style, again, as Wael, asked, and you actually already answered that in your childhood you didnt receive the original copy having all of this language, am I not correct?? This is the main point.
Muslimah, rather than criticise the use of particular language, ask yourself what purpose is it intended to serve? In order to understand you'll need to be familiar with the Catholic teachings pertaining to love, sex & relationships. The Holy Bible does not teach that immoral acts should be committed, if anything, it highlights the destruction and negative consequences the immoral sexual acts have on a person's relationship with God & neighbour. You may think that the language used is vulgar, but I respect the integrity of the Holy Bible because it candidly presents historical accounts of events that have occurred. If human beings did not distort the beauty of the marital act by engaging in immoral behaviour then the Holy Bible would have no reason to use explicit yet relevant language to recount such stories. The use of this language in metaphors is significant when reflecting on the bond between God & the Human race.
I was taught about sex very early on - its correct use & its abuse. The 6th Commandment is all about sex! I studied the Commandments before I began school. I have a very healthy & holy attitude towards sex. I'm as pure as one can be & I believe this is because of the foundations of Sacred Scripture & Church doctrine.
The issue of a children's Bible is a different one - the majority of biblical content (details) is left out because the aim of a children's Bible is to teach the holistic message of the Gospel in a simplistic form. Would I have a problem with my child reading an "adult's" Bible? No, not at all. A person's mind, body & soul can only be corrupted if they will it. I believe that I have reached a level of chastity that if you were to force me to sit on a nude beach full of naked men I would not have one lustful urge whatsoever. A child's heart is just as innocent as mine - if not more. If I were to forbid my child from reading the full biblical text then I am giving the impression that the Bible is bad & sex in general is bad. That's not on!
You might disagree & that's fine. But considering you asked even though you had already made up your mind about this matter suggests that you want to know what MY position is. Quite difficult to discuss via a computer but I hope you're able to make some sense out of it.
In Faith, Hope & Charity...
Kathie :)
God bless.
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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>FHC</b>
I would like to repeat again what I have said earlier. I don’t judge the intention or the wisdom behind these stories. I only blame the earthly language that might pervert our children. If you have passed this period of time safely, that doesn’t mean that all other children of the world were not negatively affected by the Bible. And that’s why George Bernard Shaw said about the Bible that it is “<b>The most dangerous book on earth. Keep it under lock and key: your children must not have access to it</b>.”
Salam
Wael.
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Peace of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you!
Quote:I would like to repeat again what I have said earlier. I don’t judge the intention or the wisdom behind these stories. I only blame the earthly language that might pervert our children.
God meets man where he's at. He communicates Divine truths in anthropological terms. Our minds are finite.
Quote:If you have passed this period of time safely, that doesn’t mean that all other children of the world were not negatively affected by the Bible.
A valid point... the discriminating factor is not the Holy Bible, it's the individual.
Quote:And that’s why George Bernard Shaw said about the Bible that it is “<b>The most dangerous book on earth. Keep it under lock and key: your children must not have access to it</b>.”
The more Mr Shaw condemns the word of God, the more I shall revere it. To know it is to love it!
In Christ,
Kathie :)
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Quote:A valid point... the discriminating factor is not the Holy Bible, it's the individual.
The individuals get corrupted by influence, not because they were created corrupt. I don't read to my daughter the story of Amnon then tell her: <i>'you see, Amnon was a bad man to rape his sister etc’' </i>believe me all what will she remember is the story and not the lesson taught, because I have engraved a real picture in her mind, <b>and one picture is worth ten thousand words</b>. And that’s why I said earlier, I don’t let my kids watch porn and explain to them that this act is prohibited by God. And in the same fashion, I don’t read porn to my kids and tell them that this is God’s words to show us the ugly side of human nature, they will not care much about the wisdom behind the story more than the story itself.
Quote:The more Mr Shaw condemns the word of God, the more I shall revere it. To know it is to love it!
Well, that was his opinion.
Salam
Wael.
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Peace be with you, Wael!
Quote:The individuals get corrupted by influence, not because they were created corrupt. I don't read to my daughter the story of Amnon then tell her: <i>'you see, Amnon was a bad man to rape his sister etc’' </i>believe me all what will she remember is the story and not the lesson taught, because I have engraved a real picture in her mind, <b>and one picture is worth ten thousand words</b>. And that’s why I said earlier, I don’t let my kids watch porn and explain to them that this act is prohibited by God. And in the same fashion, I don’t read porn to my kids and tell them that this is God’s words to show us the ugly side of human nature, they will not care much about the wisdom behind the story more than the story itself.
I take it your daughter has the same mind as you.
The Hole Bible doesn't revolve around one story. If you were to read the account of Amnon & Tamar in context - drawing on Sacred Scripture as a whole, I guarantee you that it'll bring with it a whole new meaning! The Holy Bible isn't optional in a devout Catholic family. We have nothing to be ashamed of because we approach God's word with the eyes of faith, hope & charity, & in return we receive more than we could've ever dreamed of!
If I'm ever blessed with children & they approach me asking questions about life, love, family, marriage, etc., for example, "Where do babies come from?" the first resource I'll reach for is the Holy Bible.
I won't tell you how to raise your children or attack Islam's sexual ethics (or lack there of), & I'd appreciate it if you refrained from interferring in my home or spiritual life.
Thanks & God bless.
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