Allah is "Emmanuel"

[naseeha]

I would beg to differ FHC when you said "Same end.. different means"


I would say this because, the belief that Allah is above all is central to the Islamic Aqeedah (Creed). To believe that he's amongst us.. here there and everywhere is something that is frowned upon in islam.


You see, this belief can lead to practices that are completely alien to islam and the rise of actions that would shake the very foundation of someone's faith if they saw allah as being here there and everywhere.


For instance... Lets just say... over the course of 1000 years the thought patterns of the people where to go as follows;


______________________________


After 1 Year - Allah is everywhere


After 100 years - If Allah is everywhere then he's in this rock on the ground.


After 300 years - If Allah is in this rock in the ground maybe I can use it to help me concentrate during my prayer..


After 800 years - I'll carve a statue out of this rock and use it as a form of focusing my concentration on god.


After 1000 years - I'll worship this rock....


______________________________


That's one point of view...


another way of looking at this issue is this.....


"If Allah is here, there and everywhere, then that means that he is in the faeces that the dog left in the front lawn " NA AUDHU BILLAH!!! and surely our lord is not there.... besides to say that allah is above all else doesn't restrict him in anyway...


The above are just examples of what muslims think... but the thing that puts the nail in the coffin for us... and what seals our faith... is the fact that Allah told us so in the Quran.... In the verses mentioned in the above posts...


As for your question above.....


Allah refers to himself in the plural in many parts of the quran. this is what we call in islam "first person plural" It's a part of speech that indicates Majesty....


From the little reading that I have done, this form of speech is also not foreign to the kings of the past who would refer to tehmselves as "We"


Hope I cleared some things up FHC....


Hidaaya

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all.


Hi naseeha :wavey:


Okay, here's my take...

I would beg to differ FHC when you said "Same end.. different means"


I would say this because, the belief that Allah is above all is central to the Islamic Aqeedah (Creed). To believe that he's amongst us.. here there and everywhere is something that is frowned upon in islam.


You see, this belief can lead to practices that are completely alien to islam and the rise of actions that would shake the very foundation of someone's faith if they saw allah as being here there and everywhere.

I totally understand where you're coming from. But if we believe God/Allah (SWT) created everything then He is in some form or another present & manifested in everything... whether it be by His knowledge, power, or essence.

For instance... Lets just say... over the course of 1000 years the thought patterns of the people where to go as follows;
______________________________


After 1 Year - Allah is everywhere


After 100 years - If Allah is everywhere then he's in this rock on the ground.


After 300 years - If Allah is in this rock in the ground maybe I can use it to help me concentrate during my prayer..


After 800 years - I'll carve a statue out of this rock and use it as a form of focusing my concentration on god.


After 1000 years - I'll worship this rock....


______________________________

That sounds like Pantheism - the furthest thing from both our beliefs. We can look at a rock, flower, waterfall, butterfly etc., & appreciate the beauty & goodness of God's/Allah's creation but we can't say that those things <i>are</i> God/Allah.


To "worships a rock" is to believe that the rock itself possesses power, glory, wisdom etc., minus God.

another way of looking at this issue is this.....
"If Allah is here, there and everywhere, then that means that he is in the faeces that the dog left in the front lawn " NA AUDHU BILLAH!!! and surely our lord is not there....

Try looking at it a different way. Nothing in the universe came to be without the awesome hands of God/Allah bringing it into existence... that includes the dog, the lawn & the faeces. He's the ultimate first principle, mover & sustainer of all things.


Again, it's difficult to speak about God/Allah in human terms.


Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that God is not in the faeces but the faeces are in, or part or, God's creation.

As for your question above.....


Allah refers to himself in the plural in many parts of the quran. this is what we call in islam "first person plural" It's a part of speech that indicates Majesty....


From the little reading that I have done, this form of speech is also not foreign to the kings of the past who would refer to tehmselves as "We"

Are you serious?


I can understand why kings, popes, leaders etc., would use "We" in the first person plural (because of their predecessors/successors), but I'm quite surprised that Allah did in the Koran. Anyways, it's no big deal. Thanks for answering :thumb:

Hope I cleared some things up FHC....

Hope I didn't blur your vision, mate ;)

Hidaaya

One more thing... what does "Hidaaya" mean?


Thanks again, naseeha :thumb:


God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Are you serious?
I can understand why kings, popes, leaders etc., would use "We" in the first person plural (because of their predecessors/successors), but I'm quite surprised that Allah did in the Koran. Anyways, it's no big deal. Thanks for answering．　

Why you are so surprised FHC? Doesn't God in the Bible also use "Us" and "Our" to refer to Himself? Jewish and Christian scholars also confirmed the fact that Hebrew language contains this plural of majesty.


When God in Genesis says, in the Beginning GOD created so and so, the Hebrew word for God here is <b>Elohim</b>, which means <b>GODS and not GOD</b>. But the Jews, being truly monotheistic and thoroughly familiar with the idioms of their own language, have never understood the use of the plural to indicate a plurality of persons within the one God.


Webpage


Salam


Wael

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all.


Assalamu alaikum, Wael!

Why you are so surprised FHC? Doesn't God in the Bible also use "Us" and "Our" to refer to Himself? Jewish and Christian scholars also confirmed the fact that Hebrew language contains this plural of majesty.


When God in Genesis says, in the Beginning GOD created so and so, the Hebrew word for God here is <b>Elohim</b>, which means <b>GODS and not GOD</b>. But the Jews, being truly monotheistic and thoroughly familiar with the idioms of their own language, have never understood the use of the plural to indicate a plurality of persons within the one God.

You're kind of right but remember Christians vary from Jews in their understanding of the One True God. For Christians God is Three Persons subsisting in One Divine Being. I'm yet to study Scripture in Hebrew so I'm not too informed on this subject, but I was told a while back that the Three Persons (Father Son Holy Spirit) revealed in the N/T are concealed but indirectly referred to in the O/T when the common name of God is used... or something like that. I'll have to check it out!


Anyways, like I said, it's not a big deal. I was just surprised because I never thought I'd find this in the Koran. I stared at it for hours to make sure I wasn't seeing things - LOL!


It's all good :thumb:


Take care, mate!

[naseeha]

Hidaaya means "Guidance"


Anyways. I must differ from your first point FHC, Creating something doesn't mean that he is in it or manifest in it. Much the same way that when we carve a statue we are not part of it nor are we manifest in it.


as for the other point the with the rock... the point of that was to illustrate how these "minor" issues can be taken out of context with the passage of time....


In fact... islam tells the story of how idolatory and shirk started.... Statues were built of pious ppl just to remember them.. and eventually these pious ppl were being worshipped.... all this with the passage of time and the effect of the way we think as human beings...


Therefore, to believe that allah is in everything or everything is in allah... is and can lead to further blasphemy... from an islamic point of view...


you seein the islamic understanding now???

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

You're kind of right but remember Christians vary from Jews in their understanding of the One True God.

Ok, forget about the Jews for a moment (<b>Although the whole OT is written in their own language and they are the best people to explain it</b>). However, Christians who are holding their Bible today, strongly believe that they are led by the Holy Spirit, and that this Spirit (<i>which is God by the way</i>), reveling to them ALL TRUTH, and yet Christians today are in conflict with regards to "<i>their understanding of the one true God</i>". You will find some Christians who claims that "US" and "OUR" used in the book of Genesis refers to Trinity, while others do not support Trinity at all, you will see some Christians who say that the name of God is NOT Allah and that this name was never used by Christains before the advent of Islam, while some other Christains glorify no other name but Allah.


and so, since Christians are not in agreement regarding the concept of God, then we invite them to look into the <b>FURQAN</b> (The criteria to judge right from wrong) and that is the Qur'an, in which God Himself reveled to His people in simple language, His true nature and attributes.


May Allah guide us all. Ameen.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all.

Hidaaya means "Guidance"

Cool! Thanks :thumb:

Anyways. I must differ from your first point FHC, Creating something doesn't mean that he is in it or manifest in it. Much the same way that when we carve a statue we are not part of it nor are we manifest in it.

Hmmm... to a certain extent, we are. It's the result of one's intellect, design, composition etc.


Anyways, let's just agree to disagree. There's too much philosophy surrounding this matter.

as for the other point the with the rock... the point of that was to illustrate how these "minor" issues can be taken out of context with the passage of time....


In fact... islam tells the story of how idolatory and shirk started.... Statues were built of pious ppl just to remember them.. and eventually these pious ppl were being worshipped.... all this with the passage of time and the effect of the way we think as human beings...


Therefore, to believe that allah is in everything or everything is in allah... is and can lead to further blasphemy... from an islamic point of view...

It's a case of better safe than sorry. There's nothing wrong with Muslims being cautious ;)

you seein the islamic understanding now???

I think I saw it from the beginning. I just wanted to explore it further :)


Thanks, take care & God bless.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.

Ok, forget about the Jews for a moment (<b>Although the whole OT is written in their own language and they are the best people to explain it</b>). However, Christians who are holding their Bible today, strongly believe that they are led by the Holy Spirit, and that this Spirit (<i>which is God by the way</i>), reveling to them ALL TRUTH, and yet Christians today are in conflict with regards to "<i>their understanding of the one true God</i>". You will find some Christians who claims that "US" and "OUR" used in the book of Genesis refers to Trinity, while others do not support Trinity at all, you will see some Christians who say that the name of God is NOT Allah and that this name was never used by Christains before the advent of Islam, while some other Christains glorify no other name but Allah.

You're absolutely spot-on, Wael!


But I'd prefer not to discuss Christian politics on an Islamic forum. I think it's best we stick to Catholic/Muslim dialogue.

and so, since Christians are not in agreement regarding the concept of God, then we invite them to look into the <b>FURQAN</b> (The criteria to judge right from wrong) and that is the Qur'an, in which God Himself reveled to His people in simple language, His true nature and attributes.

You know that I respect you & I wholeheartedly echo what JP2 said about Allah's (SWT) names & attributes in the Quran - beautiful stuff! But that's where it ends for me.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

Amen. May He also show us the path to peace & co-existence.


Blessings to you!

[naseeha]

Cool...


we'll agree to disagree..


but althought "there's alot of philosophy" surrounding the matter... I believe it's this matter that forms the basis of our belief in god and the basis by which each religion is formed...

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Just to add a few words to this matter about We. Since I all started it.... <_<


QUR’AN USES ‘WE’ FOR ALLAH


Question:


Does Islam believe in several gods because the Qur’an uses the word ‘We’ when God speaks in the Qur’an?


Answer:


Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion. It believes in and adheres to uncompromising monotheism. It believes that God is one, and unique in His attributes. In the Qur’an, God often refers to Himself using the word ‘We’. But this does not mean that Islam believes in the existence of more than one God.


Two types of plural


In several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.


a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We’ instead of ‘I’. This is known as the ‘royal plural’.


b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum’ means ‘We’ which is again a royal plural in Hindi.


c. Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur’an, He often uses Arabic word 'Nahnu' meaning ‘We’. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect.


Tawheed or monotheism is one of the pillars of Islam. The existence and uniqueness of one and only one God is mentioned several times in the Qur’an. For instance in Surah Ikhlas, it says :


"Say He is Allah the One and Only."


[Al-Qur’an 112: 1]


Source: http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm


I would like to add a link that explains the tahweed of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in Islam and the importance of keeping it, http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/t...w/abutaw_1.html