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AhmedBahgat · (This post was last modified: 07-18-2007, 10:42 AM by AhmedBahgat.)

Wael said:

Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.

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Alaikum Alsalam

Wael said:

Brother, you have to understand that the same Qur'an tells us to follow the Prophet Muhammad pbuh if you we are in doubt concerning any matter:

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Hmmm, well let me see what you brought in as evidence then I will have to show you something that it seems you don’t really understand

Wael said:

If ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the Messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day Qur’an 4:59

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Let me bring the Arabic text, I only look at the Arabic text when I discuss the Quran with anyone, just to confirm that the translation is right:

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً (59)

[The Quran ; 4:59]



O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

It seems you brought the verse that I want however it also seems that you dropped its start and only brought its end because it suits your allegation, you won’t be able to do this with me unfortunately, now if you read the verse again you should read the following at the start:” يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ”, i.e. ” O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you;”, i.e. we are required to obey the following:

1) Allah

2) The prophet

3) And those among us who have authority

Now I might ask the hadith advocates, why you only take Allah and His prophet from the above?, it seems according to your logic we may also need to obey those who died in the past and had authority and during their life time they created rules that we should obey EVEN IF IT CONTRADICTS ALLAH LAWS, well most certainly I won’t be one of those, I classify those as Mushrikoon, sorry

Now for your argument, well we are not disputing anything really, or sort of we are disputing something else, I’m disputing with you taking other laws from anyone which clearly contradicts Allah laws and kill other humans without any authority from Allah, YES I will obey the hearsay about the prophet or any one for that matter as long as it does not contradict Allah laws, i.e. it is you guys who created some human laws that contradict Allah laws and yet want me to obey it , well if Allah didnlt talk about the matter in His Quran then I will listen to you guys but Allah clearly talked about them in the Quran, let me parrot it again and again as you guys parrot your opinions again and again:

Firstly the freewill was given for anyone to believe or not to believe:



Say, The truth is from your Lord: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

[The Quran ; 18:29]

 

وَقُلِ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ فَمَن شَاء فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاء فَلْيَكْفُرْ إِنَّا أَعْتَدْنَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ نَارًا أَحَاطَ بِهِمْ سُرَادِقُهَا وَإِن يَسْتَغِيثُوا يُغَاثُوا بِمَاء كَالْمُهْلِ يَشْوِي الْوُجُوهَ بِئْسَ الشَّرَابُ وَسَاءتْ مُرْتَفَقًا (29)

-> See, ” Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it)”, for those who reject though, they are promised with harm but by Allah not but any human :“ for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!”, now the verse above in no way means ” Let him who will believe FOR THE FIRST TIME, and let him who will, reject (it) FOR THEE FIRST TIME”, in fact the verse above IMPLIES total freewill to believe then disbelieve then believe then disbelieve, we can not in no way suggest that the freewill regarding BELIEF mentioned in 18:29 is given only ONCE and if you change it then you must be killed, it makes no sense and certainly contradict the Quran as we will see soon.

For those who believed then rejected, again we see that the harm promised to them is by Allah not by any other human:



90: Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.

91: Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.

[The Quran ; 3:90-91]

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّن تُقْبَلَ تَوْبَتُهُمْ وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الضَّآلُّونَ (90)

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَمَاتُواْ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْ أَحَدِهِم مِّلْءُ الأرْضِ ذَهَبًا وَلَوِ افْتَدَى بِهِ أُوْلَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ وَمَا لَهُم مِّن نَّاصِرِينَ (91)

-> We can clearly read above about the apostates :” Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief” for them, here is one of their punishment :” their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.”, we can read in the following verse that Allah is talking aoutt the kafiroon in general, however it should be covering those kafiroon who were believers in the past and died while being kafiroon, Allah is telling us about the moment of their death as kafiroon:” Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.”, again there is no mention to any harm by any human, and the ransom mentioned seems that it is natural death, unless those in support of killing them try to convince us that 3:91 is talking about the moment of us killing them.

Imagine those apostates mentioned in 3:90 (who were once believers) kept doing it, i.e. they believed then disbelieved then believed then disbelieved, I actually know many who did that, I think Sabah the famous singer did it many times, yet the Quran mentioned them as well:



137: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

138: Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement:

[The Quran ; 4:137-138]

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلاَ لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلاً (137)

بَشِّرِ الْمُنَافِقِينَ بِأَنَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا (138)

-> See, ”Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief,”, and here is the punishment ”Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.” how come Allah may guide them back if He wants us to kill them the first time they disbelieved?, how come the verse above is telling us that they (at least) disbelieved 3 times and believed 2 times while you allege that Allah wants us to kill them the first time they disbelieved?, in fact Allah told Mohammad what to do with those apostates, nothing more than saying: ” Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement:”, of course they are hypocrites if they :” believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief”

Now if all the above hadith by Allah is not enough to convince you that what you are following contradict Allah laws that is solely based on a freewill regarding BELIEF, then let me bring one more verse, see, in the above verses the Murttadeen (the apostates) were not mentioned directly, it was only a case of logical common sense that any one who believe then disbelieve must be a Murttad (an apostate), the following verse however talks about them DIRECTLY:



O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

[The Quran ; 5:54]

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَلاَ يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لآئِمٍ ذَلِكَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاء وَاللّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ (54)

-> See, ” يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ”, ”Ya Ayuha Alazeena Aamanu Mn YARTTAD Minkum An Dinihi”, i.e. ” O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion”, can you see the verb YARTTAD, that is the action of Al Murtaddeen, i.e. the action of the apostates when they their back from the religion of Islam, i.e. 5:54 is 100% talking directly about them, yet we never see any punishment to them by any human other than :“Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer;”, it seems to me that they were kept alive by Allah and no Hadd (law) should be enforced on them.

Clear from all the above that anyone has the freewill to believe and disbelieve without any harm imposed on them by any human

It is not strange to see the enemy of Islam use the flawed understanding by many Muslims, sneaking on their submission to the flawed humans hadith, if the religion of Islam is as you guys allege which is kill those who leave it then I say the religion can not be from the one and only God (Allah forbids).

We should welcome the apostates but only if they don’t attack or lie about the religion because if they do then they are not considered apostates any more rather clear cut enemy and any of them must be dealt with accordingly which is to fight them and there will be no question that this fight by the believers must be in the cause of Allah dealing not with apostates rather enemies of Allah and the believers, this is how it happened during the War of the Riddah during Abu Baker khilafah, a group of Murttadeen joined forces to lie, defame and weaken the religion and Abu Bakr dealt with them as enemies of Allah and His religion.

Wael said:

So what does the Prophet say about this matter?

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The prophet need to say nothing, the matter of apostates has been finalised by Allah in His Quran. Now let me also inform you that your statement abive is 100% flawed, it should be as follow if you want to be 100% accurate:

”So what is alleged that the Prophet said about this matter?

See, it is an clear cut allegation by a few people that we never met nor we even can prove their existence nor we are required to believe that they existed, we are required to believe that the prophets existed only. In court they should classify the hadith as hearsay, i.e. conjectures and as you know MOST hearsay if not all are thrown out of court, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ALLAH TOLD US TOO, let’s have a look:



O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures, for surely some conjectures are sin, and do not spy nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? But you abhor it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

[The Quran ; 49:12]



يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اجْتَنِبُوا كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الظَّنِّ إِنَّ بَعْضَ الظَّنِّ إِثْمٌ وَلَا تَجَسَّسُوا وَلَا يَغْتَب بَّعْضُكُم بَعْضًا أَيُحِبُّ أَحَدُكُمْ أَن يَأْكُلَ لَحْمَ أَخِيهِ مَيْتًا فَكَرِهْتُمُوهُ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَوَّابٌ رَّحِيمٌ (12)

-> See how it was ordered by Allah: ”يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اجْتَنِبُوا كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الظَّنِّ إِنَّ بَعْضَ الظَّنِّ إِثْمٌ”, i.e. ” O you who believe! avoid MOST of conjectures, for surely SOME conjectures are sin”, can you see the strong message in here?, we are ordered to avoid MOST conjectures because SOME of it is sin, i.e. instead of saying any of the followings:

1) avoid MOST
conjectures because MOST
of it is sin

2) avoid SOME
conjectures because SOME
of it is sin

It was said:

“avoid MOST
conjectures because SOME
of it is sin”

This must be an order to avoid MOST
conjectures even if MOST
OF IT IS TRUE. 

This fact must apply to the conjectures in the hearsay hadith EVEN IF MOST OF IT SAHIH, WHAT IS REVOLTING THAT WHEN SOME OF IT DO NOT MAKE SENSE OR CONTRADICT THE QURAN, THE Muslims LIKE YOU STILL WANT A MUSLIM LIKE YOU TO FOLLOW IT AND TAKE AS ORDAINED BY ALLAH, well my answer is simple, I’m following Ibrahim who was a Hanif Muslim and was not one of the Al Mushrikeen.

Wael said:

The Prophet pbuh made it clear that the blood of a Muslim is not lawful to shed unless he is one of the following three: "A married adulterer,

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Another lie associated to the honoured prophet, I challenge you to prove beyond doubt that the prophet said the above?

On the other hand the prophet need to say nothing regarding the Zani and Zania, Allah has ruled in His Quran that the Zani or Zania (being married or not) has to be wiped 100 lashed in public, no compassion should be offered and a group of believers should witness their punishment, please read the Quran and confirm with any one and in all dictionaries that the word Zani and Zania has noting to do with marriage

What the allegation suggest to us that the prophet modified Allah words and made the word Zani and Zania to mean those who are not married which is 100% a lie, the allegation also suggest to us that the prophet added another law and made it for those who are married to be killed if they commit Zina

On the other hand your conjectures of hadith tell us that the prophet decined to include the stoning verse in the Quarn, how come mister Wael?

It does not make sense whatsoever and should make a child laugh at those who manipulate Allah words, Allah is the best witness between me and you dear brother.

Wael said:

someone killed in retaliation for killing another,

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Yep, that is mentioned in the Quran and is called Qisas, so I have no probs to accept this part.

Wael said:

or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community.''

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This allegation is a clear cut lie, Allah has ruled in His Quran that let those who believe and let those who disbelieve and even let those who believe then disbelieve then believe then disbelieve the increase in their disbelieve, why don’t you refute these verses bro?

Wael said:

Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old?.... Qur’an 2:108

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Hmmm, I don’t know, I never saw Mohammad to question him, did you see him or something?, possibly in your dreams?

Wael said:

Ibn Taymiyah supported this view by quoting another version of the same hadith in which the Prophet pbuh said the following:

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Before I read what he said, let me ask you first, will Ibn Taymiyah carry the sin and pusnishment of me if he is wrong and I followed him?

Wael said:

The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married person who commits adultery, in which case he is to be stoned to death;

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This allegation is a clear cut lie, Allah has ruled in His Quran that let those who believe and let those who disbelieve and even let those who believe then disbelieve then believe then disbelieve the increase in their disbelieve, why don’t you refute these verses bro?

Wael said:

or someone who goes out waging war against Allah and His Messenger, in which case he is to be killed, crucified, or expelled from the land

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True, and that is exactly what Allah said in His Quran, so what is new exactly that Ibn Taymiyah added?

Wael said:

or someone who killed another, in which case he is to be killed in retaliation. (Abu Dawud and `A'ishah)

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Yep, it is called Qisas in the Quran and I’m sure the Quran explained what Qisas is as well

Let me ask now, there are another two names above, i.e. we have three names so far, Ibn Taymiyah, Abu Dawud and Aishah, who said what exactly?, sounds like hearsay to me, well even if it is true, aren’t we ordered in 49:12 to avoid most Zann (Conjectures) EVEN if MOST OF IT IS TRUE?, can you really prove to me that the above names you mentioned along with the chain of narrators really said that BEYOND AN ATOM WEIGHT OF ANY DOUBT?

Wael said:

In other words, there is no harm in ignoring the apostasy of an individual as long as he or she does not harm the Muslim nation by waging war against Allah and His messenger in anyway (peaceful apostate).

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Hmmm, isn’t that is what I’m talking about all along?, I sense change in your position

Wael said:

On the other hand, if a group of apostates

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why a group?

Can’t be an individual?

Wael said:

endangers the security and interests of the Muslim community, then the Muslim ruler should consider them to be a danger and threat to society and so he or she should be killed, crucified or expelled from the land.

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Well, they can not be refered to as apostates any more, an apostate is nothing but another Kafir (please read the verses above)

Now being a kafir who is indulged in actions to lie against, promote hatred or weaken the religion of Allah, is a clear enemy that must be fought and even killed if they try to kill us, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH APOSTACY NEITHER BEING INA GROUP, why you are mixing apples with oranges bro?

Wael said:

And Allah knows best.

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Of course He does, and He ruled in His Quran regarding the apostates and the adulteress but you are ignoring His best of knowledge (That you admitted above) and referring to other humans like Ibn Taymiyah, Abu Dawud and Aishah that I’m not even required to believe in their existence nor in any allegation about them, well let me remind you with this verse then:



Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction? And were it not for the word of judgment, decision would have certainly been given between them; and surely the unjust shall have a painful punishment.

[The Quran ; 42:21]

 

أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةُ الْفَصْلِ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (21)

-> See, ” أَمْ لَهُمْ شُرَكَاء شَرَعُوا لَهُم مِّنَ الدِّينِ مَا لَمْ يَأْذَن بِهِ اللَّهُ”, i.e. ” Or have they associates who have prescribed for them in the religion that Allah does not sanction?”, please tell me, if taking these alleged human laws is a case mentioned in the above verse

Wael said:

Salam

Wael.

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Salam

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