03-06-2007, 05:51 AM
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus have mercy on us, Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us.
Peace be with you, Wael!
All I can say is... everyone should fall madly in love with the BVM after reading your post :wub: I'm currently working on a Uni assignment based on Marian devotion & I intend on using those beautiful sayings. Thanks... you actually did me a favour.
Although my post was directed to CC who said that <b>“communion of saints”</b> is a biblical. but anyway, Thanks for your efforts. I really appreciate it.
No worries! I wish you included the quotes/sources in the first place. Now I have to do double the work :lol:
Yes but I want to see how you guys are going to <b>interpret the Bible</b>.
Great! Maybe you'll learn something ;)
This is has nothing to do with reaching God and Jesus through <b>Praying to Mary</b>.
To make my statement clear, please have a look at what St. Alphonsus Ligouri said which clearly shows that <b>you cannot come to God except through Mary</b>…
so is there any clear biblical verses to prove this?
So if praying to Mary is not obligatory, and one can pray to God directly, then his prayers would be of <b>‘little value’</b>
If your simple mind can't get passed the literalistic sense in Scripture then it'll be extremely difficult for you to understand the meaning behind the Wedding at Cana.
If I've told you once I've told you a thousands times... when you take the "text" out of "context" you're left with a "con". If you bothered to read the Saint's quotes in their entirety, the role of the BVM in Catholicism would make sense to you. I recommend you go back & read the whole lot, but of course, there's no chance of that happening, so here are some highlights taken from those exact same paragraphs...
<i>And if this is true of the saints, much more is it true of the intercession of the Mother of God, whose prayers are certainly of more value in his sight than those of all the rest of the inhabitants of heaven together.
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Mary has received a twofold fullness of grace. I the first was the Incarnation of the Word, who was made Man in her most holy womb; the second is that fullness of grace which we receive from God by means of her prayers.
... her prayers are certain to be heard by her Son: 'Go to Mary, I say, without hesitation; the Son will hear the Mother.' And then he says: 'My children, she is the ladder of sinners, she is my chief confidence, she is the whole ground of my hope.'
So that, to invoke the Virgin is not to distrust God's mercy, but to fear our own unworthiness.' St. Thomas, speaking of her dignity, calls it, as it were, infinite: 'From the fact that she is the Mother of God, she has a certain infinite dignity.' So that it may be said with reason, that the prayers of Mary have more power with God than those of all heaven together.
The Eternal Son of God, about to take upon Him our nature for the saving and ennobling of man, and about to consummate thus a mystical union between Himself and all mankind, did not accomplish His design without adding there the free consent of the elect Mother, who represented in some sort all human kind, according to the illustrious and just opinion of St. Thomas, who says that the Annunciation was effected with the consent of the Virgin standing in the place of humanity.
When we pray we will pray in Mary. When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion we will place him in Mary for him to take his delight in her. If we do anything at all, it will be in Mary, and in this way Mary will help us to forget self everywhere and in all things.
I'm speechless!
What this has to do with <b>“through Mary that we attain to the knowledge of Christ"</b>
Haha! You changed the wording of it. But nevertheless, St John the Baptist (in St Elizabeth's womb) felt the presence of his Saviour as soon as the pregnant BVM greeting St Elizabeth. St Elizabeth goes on to say that the BVM believed God who is Truth itself.
The verses mentioned that she is <b>“blessed among the women”</b>, not all heavenly gifts are given through her.
Why did you feel the need to chop the verse in half? The second half of the verse goes like this, "Blessed is the fruit of your womb." The fruit of her womb is Jesus Christ - the Father's Son who possesses all heavenly gifts.
Now I am confuse, one verse of the Bible mentioned that no one comes to the father except through Jesus, you interpreted this verse that you should worship Jesus the son, in order to reach to God the father… <b>so why the interpretation now changed when it comes to Mary?</b> i.e “no one can reach Jesus except through her”.
The BVM is not Divine. We don't worship her. She brought forth the Word Incarnate. The Son took flesh from her. She's truly His mother. Without Mary, we'd have no Jesus.
<b>so no one is sinning amongst you now? Or what this mean. </b>
Sin exists but now we have now been given the means to wash it away with Sanctifying Grace. Evil has been defeated. There's no more "enmity between Satan & the woman" (Genesis 3:15). The BVM is the new Eve.
Anyway, your explanation is different than St Lawrence
"St. Lawrence Justinian asks: 'How can she (Mary) be otherwise than full of grace, who has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and man?'...
"Again, the holy Church calls her ‘the happy gate of heaven;’ for as the same Saint Bernard remarks: ‘As every mandate of grace that is sent by a king passes by the palace-gates, so does every grace that comes from heaven to the world pass through the hands of Mary’ (Serm. iii. In Virg. Nat. D). Saint Bonaventure says that Mary is called ‘the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing by her’ (Exposit. in cap. I. Luc)." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter V "To Thee Do We Sigh".
SOURCE
where in your Bible that match with the above.
Here's the text that follows from that quote...
<i>If we implore our Blessed Lady to obtain us a favor, it is not because we distrust the Divine mercy, but rather that we fear our own unworthiness and the absence of proper dispositions; and we recommend ourselves to Mary, that her dignity may supply for our lowliness. He says that we apply to Mary ‘in order that the dignity of the intercessor may supply for our misery. Hence, to invoke the aid of the most Blessed Virgin is not diffidence in the Divine mercy, but dread of our own unworthiness’
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St John 19:26 - but you don't have the brain power & I don't have the time :D
"St. Anselm reminds us that <b>we may obtain mercy more quickly from Mary than from Jesus</b>, because Jesus is also a judge who can punish, while Mary exercises mercy as a patroness. It is not as if Mary were more powerful than Jesus, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Savior, and that He alone by His merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us. He reminds us: <b>'We often obtain more promptly what we ask by invoking Mary than by invoking Jesus</b>. Her Son is lord and judge of all, and discerns the merits of each one; therefore, if He does not immediately grant the prayers of all, He is just. When however, the Mother's name is invoked, though the merits of the suppliant are not such as to deserve that his favor be granted, those of the Mother supply, that he may receive.' Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48.
As wonderful as that quote is, it's not an infallible doctrine. St Alphonsus had a remarkable devotion to the BVM, therefore, I can totally understand where he's coming from, but it would be like someone 500 years from now discovering my opening line of this post & declare in public that St Faith Hope Charity (the St part is a joke :P) believes "everyone should fall madly in love with the BVM"... well yes, FHC thinks so, but Church dogma doesn't.
Ok ok.. but NOT the daughter of God, or His FIRST born daughter, <b>where is this in the Bible</b> ?
God please give me strength.
Who is the Father's first born daughter... Eve! Who is the new Eve... Mary! Therefore, 1+1=2. This is basic, Wael.
Ok, so this is another mystery. Ok got it we drop this topic as well. <b>“How many we dropped so far” </b>
We'll add it to the list - it's almost full :lol:
None of these verses mentioned that ‘many people worshipped Christ after Mary gave birth to Him”
Whoops! Sorry, error on my part... it's actually St Matthew 2:1-12 :blush:
It is a matter of playing with words FHC, whenever you desire to place the word GOD with Jesus it is totally allowed, but when we also do the same thing you say that we are misquoting and misinterpreting the Bible.
Are we having the same conversation? What have I missed?
Anyways... Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate - One Divine Person possessing Two Natures: Divine + Human.
<b>By the way, I would like to see from the Bible where Mary sits on her son’s right hand.</b>
Okay, but next time please say "please" ;)
In Revelation 12:1-2 the BVM is described as a queen. In Revelation 19:16, Jesus Christ is described as King. The Queen sits at the right hand (power) of the King.
By the way, there's nothing in those quotes that suggests the BVM has a divine nature. Please stay focused & stop hallucinating :lol:
She held the Son of God within her womb, therefore her body is the "Ark of the Covenant" where divine life dwells. During the 9 months she was a type of heaven on earth. Please go back & read those quotes again.
Here God becomes Jesus. Why these people don’t make it clear? Why they just don’t use the proper words <b>when describing God</b>?
I'm experiencing a dejavu! Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Son of God. He assumed a human nature, a human, soul, a human mind, a human will. But He never ceased being God. He's fully Divine & fully Human! His two natures were joined in the hypostatic union. Insh a Allah one day you'll understand - I haven't given up hope yet, don't worry!
"<b>We must perform all our actions for Mary</b>, which means that as slaves of this noble Queen we will work only for her, promoting her interests and her high renown, and making this the first aim in all our acts, while the glory of God will always be our final end. In everything we must renounce self- love because more often than not, without our being aware of it, selfishness sets itself up as the end of all we work for. We should often repeat from the depths of our heart: 'Dear Mother, it is to please you that I go here or there, that I do this or that, that I suffer this pain or this injury.'" St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #49. SOURCE
This only applies if you chose to enrol in this particular devotion & consecrate yourself the BVM.
From the same page...
I have already said that this devotion consists in performing all our actions with Mary, in Mary, through Mary, and for Mary.
From the same paragraph...
...the glory of God will always be our final end.
Mary is the center of the whole world, and so you should praise her, venerate her, honor her, esteem her and WORSHIP HER.
Aywah, aywah, aywah, aywah, aywah & NO! Worship is due to God alone. We respect & revere the BVM by paying homage to her but to worship her would be a sin :76:
<b>"Devotion to you, O Blessed Virgin, is a means
of salvation which God gives to those whom he wishes to save." St. John Damascene (Quoted by St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #40.</b> SOURCE
Yes, devotion to the BVM is a (powerful) means... but it's not the only one.
To tell you honestly, I was shocked when you said that I am attacking Catholicism, not only shocked, but saddened.
Haha! You're a clown! I can't believe you just said that. I've never met anyone who criticizes the Church as much as you. Move over Dan Brown...
Thanks for the chat!
God bless.