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wel_mel_2 · 03-05-2007, 04:03 AM

Bismillah:

Anything for you, Wael

Although my post was directed to CC who said that “communion of saints” is a biblical. but anyway, Thanks for your efforts. I really appreciate it.

Even though you don't recognize the authenticity & sacredness of Scripture.

Yes but I want to see how you guys are going to interpret the Bible.

She interceded for the guests at the wedding in Cana by asking Jesus to perform His first miracle & change water to wine. St John 2:1-11.

This is has nothing to do with reaching God and Jesus through Praying to Mary.

To make my statement clear, please have a look at what St. Alphonsus Ligouri said which clearly shows that you cannot come to God except through Mary…

so is there any clear biblical verses to prove this?

"...we only have access to the Father by means of the Son, who is the Mediator of justice, so we only have access to the Son by means of the Mother, who is mediator of grace, and who obtains for us, by her intercession, the gifts which Jesus Christ has merited for us....you cannot come to God except by means of Jesus Christ, nor can you come to Christ except by means of his Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection (The Necessity and Power of Prayer), Chapter 1, The Necessity of Prayer, Section 4 "The Intercession of the Blessed Virgin".[
url=http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/mustpray.htm]Source[/url]

Pope Leo XIII have a similar saying:

“With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....Mary is this glorious intermediary..." Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 4.
SOURCE

St Louis Marie makes it even clearer.

"We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must never be without her when praying to Jesus.....

"Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God.." St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #10, 48, 50. SOURCE

So if praying to Mary is not obligatory, and one can pray to God directly, then his prayers would be of ‘little value’

When the BVM's cousin, St Elizabeth, heard her greeting, the baby in her womb, St John the Baptist, leaped for joy. St Elizabeth then called the BVM blessed because she believed the words God had spoken were true. St Luke 1:44-45.

What this has to do with “through Mary that we attain to the knowledge of Christ"

The fruit of the BVM's womb is Divine & He brings everything from Heaven into this world.

St Luke 1:42-43.

The verses mentioned that she is “blessed among the women”, not all heavenly gifts are given through her.

Now I am confuse, one verse of the Bible mentioned that no one comes to the father except through Jesus, you interpreted this verse that you should worship Jesus the son, in order to reach to God the father… so why the interpretation now changed when it comes to Mary? i.e “no one can reach Jesus except through her”.

By the grace of God bestowed upon the BVM, she crushed the head of the serpent - the source of evil which causes us to sin.

so no one is sinning amongst you now? Or what this mean. 

Anyway, your explanation is different than St Lawrence

"St. Lawrence Justinian asks: 'How can she (Mary) be otherwise than full of grace, who has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and man?'...

"Again, the holy Church calls her ‘the happy gate of heaven;’ for as the same Saint Bernard remarks: ‘As every mandate of grace that is sent by a king passes by the palace-gates, so does every grace that comes from heaven to the world pass through the hands of Mary’ (Serm. iii. In Virg. Nat. D). Saint Bonaventure says that Mary is called ‘the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing by her’ (Exposit. in cap. I. Luc)." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter V "To Thee Do We Sigh". SOURCE

where in your Bible that match with the above.

The BVM can answer our prayers faster than Jesus??? That's a heresy!

"St. Anselm reminds us that we may obtain mercy more quickly from Mary than from Jesus, because Jesus is also a judge who can punish, while Mary exercises mercy as a patroness. It is not as if Mary were more powerful than Jesus, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Savior, and that He alone by His merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us. He reminds us: 'We often obtain more promptly what we ask by invoking Mary than by invoking Jesus. Her Son is lord and judge of all, and discerns the merits of each one; therefore, if He does not immediately grant the prayers of all, He is just. When however, the Mother's name is invoked, though the merits of the suppliant are not such as to deserve that his favor be granted, those of the Mother supply, that he may receive.' Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48.

The BVM is the new Eve. She's the Virgin of the Covenant which God establishes with all humanity in the new creation.

Ok ok.. but NOT the daughter of God, or His FIRST born daughter, where is this in the Bible ?

10- Mary is the spouse and lover of Godhead.

11- Mary is the bride and spouse of God the father.

12- Mary is the spouse and bride of God the son.

13- Mary is the bride and spouse of God the holy spirit.

How on earth will you understand this having not yet grasped the concept/truth of the Most Holy Trinity?

Ok, so this is another mystery. Ok got it we drop this topic as well. “How many we dropped so far” :D

By the Incarnation, the Son of God became Man & entered the world through the BVM. Many people came to worship Christ after Mother Mary gave birth to Him.

St Luke 2:7-20.

None of these verses mentioned that ‘many people worshipped Christ after Mary gave birth to Him”

It is a matter of playing with words FHC, whenever you desire to place the word GOD with Jesus it is totally allowed, but when we also do the same thing you say that we are misquoting and misinterpreting the Bible.

15- Mary is Divine, Sovereign, and Reigns on the throne of God.

Excuse me???

"Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. 'Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son.'" Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 6.
SOURCE

"HAIL MARY, BELOVED DAUGHTER OF THE ETERNAL FATHER.

"Hail MARY, admirable Mother of the Son. Hail MARY, faithful Spouse of the Holy Ghost. Hail MARY, my Mother, my loving Mistress, my powerful sovereign. Hail, my joy, my glory, my heart and my soul. Thou art all mine by mercy, and I am Thine by justice. But I am not yet sufficiently Thine. I now give myself wholly to Thee without keeping anything back for myself or others. If Thou seest anything in me which does not belong to Thee, I beseech Thee to take it and make Thyself the absolute Mistress of all that is mine." St. Louis De Montfort, Prayer to Mary. SOURCE

"Jesus 'sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high' (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son -- a refuge so secure and a help so trusty against all dangers that we have nothing to fear or to despair of under her guidance, her patronage, her protection. (Pius IX. in Bull Ineffabilis)." Pope Pius X, in Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1904, #14.
SOURCE

By the way, I would like to see from the Bible where Mary sits on her son’s right hand.

"I declare with the saints: Mary is the earthly paradise of Jesus Christ the new Adam, where he became man by the power of the Holy Spirit, in order to accomplish in her wonders beyond our understanding. She is the vast and divine world of God where unutterable marvels and beauties are to be found. She is the magnificence of the Almighty where he hid his only Son, as in his own bosom, and with him everything that is most excellent and precious.

"I say with the saints, the divine Mary is the terrestrial paradise of the New Adam [Jesus], where He was made flesh by the operation of the Holy Ghost, in order to work there incomprehensible marvels. She is the grand and divine world of God, where there are beauties and treasures unspeakable. She is the magnificence of the Most High, where He hid, as in her bosom, His only Son, and in Him all that is most excellent and most precious....

"Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God....

"Be persuaded, then, that the more you look at Mary in your prayers, contemplations, actions, and sufferings, if not with a distinct and definite view, at least with a general and imperceptible one, the more perfectly you will find Jesus Christ, who is always, with Mary, great, powerful, active and incomprehensible - more than in Heaven or in any other creature. Thus, so far from the divine Mary, all absorbed in God, being an obstacle to the perfect in attaining union with God, there has never been up to this time, and there never will be, any creature who will aid us more efficaciously in this great work..." St. Louis-Marie Grignion De Montfort, in True Devotion to Mary, #6, 27, 165 (translated from the original French by Fr. Frederick William Faber, D.D., edited and annotated by the Fathers of the Company of Mary, copyright 1941, published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, Illinois, 61105, ISBN 0-89555-279-5, Library of Congress Catalog Card No: 85-50571, bearing the "Imprimi Potest", "Nihil Obstat" and "Imprimatur" of the Catholic Church).

"Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. 'Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son.'" Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 6. SOURCE

16- God Himself is submissive and obedient to Mary, not only that but He is a subject to her.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God Incarnate, was obedient to His mother as all children ought. Mother Mary pondered all these things in her heart.

St Luke 2:48-51.

Here God becomes Jesus. Why these people don’t make it clear? Why they just don’t use the proper words when describing God?

"Since grace enhances our human nature and glory adds a still greater perfection to grace, it is certain that our Lord remains in heaven just as much the Son of Mary as he was on earth. Consequently he has retained the submissiveness and obedience of the most perfect of all children towards the best of all mothers....When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother's prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will....

"Since the principal mystery celebrated and honoured in this devotion is the mystery of the Incarnation where we find Jesus only in Mary, having become incarnate in her womb, it is appropriate for us to say, 'slavery of Jesus in Mary', of Jesus dwelling enthroned in Mary, according to the beautiful, prayer, recited by so many great souls, 'O Jesus living in Mary'." St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. SOURCE

17- Everything you do, must be done for Mary.

Untrue!

"We must perform all our actions for Mary, which means that as slaves of this noble Queen we will work only for her, promoting her interests and her high renown, and making this the first aim in all our acts, while the glory of God will always be our final end. In everything we must renounce self- love because more often than not, without our being aware of it, selfishness sets itself up as the end of all we work for. We should often repeat from the depths of our heart: 'Dear Mother, it is to please you that I go here or there, that I do this or that, that I suffer this pain or this injury.'" St. Louis Marie de Montfort, in The Secret of Mary, #49.
SOURCE

20- Mary is the center of the whole world, and so you should praise her, venerate her, honor her, esteem her and WORSHIP HER.

Completely absurd

"From the earliest ages of the Catholic Church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen....

"We have recourse to Mary Our Queen, making known to her those sentiments of filial reverence which are not Ours alone, but which belong to all those who glory in the name of Christian....

"Further: 'O just, O most blessed Joseph), since thou art sprung from a royal line, thou hast been chosen from among all mankind to be spouse of the pure Queen who, in a way which defies description, will give birth to Jesus the king.' In addition: 'I shall sing a hymn to the mother, the Queen, whom I joyously approach in praise, gladly celebrating her wonders in song...Our tongue cannot worthily praise thee, O Lady; for thou who hast borne Christ the king art exalted above the seraphim...Hail, O Queen of the world; hail, O Mary, Queen of us all.'

"We read, moreover, in the Ethiopic Missal: 'O Mary, center of the whole world,...thou art greater than the many-eyed cherubim and the six-winged seraphim...Heaven and earth are filled with the sanctity of thy glory.'...

"Let all Christians, therefore, glory in being subjects of the Virgin Mother of God, who, while wielding royal power, is on fire with a mother's love." Pope Pius XII, in Ad Caeli Reginam (On Proclaiming the Queenship of Mary), Encyclical promulgated on October 11, 1954, #1-2, 28-29, 43.SOURCE

"The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century." Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.
SOURCE

"In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary, whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs....

"The most infallible and indubitable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and the reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady, endeavoring by their words and examples to diminish the worship (or veneration) and love of her, openly or hiddenly, and sometimes by misrepresentation. Alas! God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them, for they are Esaus....

"There are several interior practices to true devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Here are the principle ones, stated compendiously: (1) to honor her as the worthy Mother of God, with the worship of hyperdulia; that is to say, to esteem her and honor her above all the other saints, as the masterpiece of grace, and the first after Jesus Christ, true God and true Man..." St. Louis-Marie Grignion De Montfort, in True Devotion to Mary, #28, 30, 115 (translated from the original French by Fr. Frederick William Faber, D.D., edited and annotated by the Fathers of the Company of Mary, copyright 1941, published by Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., Rockford, Illinois, 61105, ISBN 0-89555-279-5, Library of Congress Catalog Card No: 85-50571, bearing the "Imprimi Potest", "Nihil Obstat" and "Imprimatur" of the Catholic Church).

Devotions are helpful but are in no obligatory.

"Devotion to you, O Blessed Virgin, is a means of salvation which God gives to those whom he wishes to save." St. John Damascene (Quoted by St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #40. SOURCE

Please note, you're not the first person on earth & you won't be the last to attack Catholicism.

To tell you honestly, I was shocked when you said that I am attacking Catholicism, not only shocked, but saddened.

Salam

Wael

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