02-11-2007, 01:34 PM
Glory to God in the highest, peace on earth & goodwill to all.
As salam alykum Wael, Dan & Muslimah.
Insh a Allah I'll be granted the wisdom & humility to provide satisfactory responses.
Mr Wael...
Quote:Wrong…
In a "SHOCK SURVEY OF ANGLICAN BISHOPS" in June 1984 it was revealed that 31 of their 39 Bishops thought that
<b>"Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible."</b>
In deference to the Bishops of the Church of England (the "Anglicans") the Church of Scotland also omitted any reference to the "Virgin Birth" from its publication "A STATEMENT OF FAITH."
I think these Anglicans are on the verge of establishing Protestant denomination number 50 001!!!
How someone can call himself a Christian & not believe what's "described in the Bible" is beyond me!
Lord Jesus Mercy.
Quote:<b>Why this 'Blesses Trinity' should be that difficult if it was ‘really’ the central doctrine of the Christian faith??? </b>
<b>Why for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity?</b> At the least, <b>would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers?</b> <b>Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith? </b>
It's not difficult for everyone. The Blessed Trinity is concealed in the O/T & made manifest in the N/T. From the moment Jesus Christ revealed this supernatural truth to the world, the Church has not denied it, but instead, relied on Theology to explore & explain the doctrine (not the mystery).
For more info, please check "Discussion of Beliefs".
Mr Dan...
Quote:The Eucharist (or Communion) has its origins in the Last Supper (btw muslim account of it is interesting, FHC. Start at verse 111. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html).
I got carried away & read the whole Sura :)
I found a few Ayats rather fascinating. You probably already know what I'm thinking...
005.017
YUSUFALI: In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.
As I've drilled into Wael's head time & time again... Christians don't profess that "God is Jesus". God is: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's inappropriate to call God "Jesus", however, it's perfectly acceptable to say "Jesus is God", because <i>person</i> answers the question, <i>who?</i> & <i>nature</i> answers the question, <i>what?</i> I hope that makes sense! The above translation seems a little dodgy. Is that how it's worded in Arabic? (I can read Arabic but I only own an English version of the Qur'an)
005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
005.048
YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
So basically, these Ayat's are telling Christians to search their Scriptures for God's true message & obey it. If that's the case, then you can't blame a Catholic for being a Catholic! Please let us judge our Bible & live according to it.
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
No comment.
005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
Dan & I both know very well that Jesus never told His followers to worship His blessed mother as a god. Truth be told, this whole Ayat is just sooooooo weird to me, as I'm sure you can imagine.
Quote:What Muslimah might then ask is from where did the specific actions and methods come? Like why is an altar used when Jesus used a table? Why do people kneel or stand at certain times? Who commanded this?
It's all based on Temple worship in the O/T & the Lamb's Supper in the book of Revelations.
"All sacraments and sacramentality derive from and are modelled on Christ, the Incarnate Word. A Sacrament is an outward rite instituted by Christ to signify grace, and to give the grace it signifies."
Quote:Muslims then have a difficult time understanding why Christians will do some of the acts of worship they do when Christ never did it himself, like the sign of the cross.
We make the Sign of the Cross (In the NAME of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Spirit. Amen.) because we're offering up our prayers to God. Notice how we say "name" rather than "names", because we're praying to ONE GOD, not three gods. In Arabic, "One God" is actually inserted before "Amen" - this is to avoid confusion between Christians & Muslims in the Middle East... seriously!
Quote:Insha'Allah this helped rather than hindered. I apologize if I have said anything incorrect or offensive.
Thanks Dan! No need to apologize. Please feel free to have your say whenever you want (like you need my permission - LOL).
Although you & Muslimah aren't on the same page, I just couldn't ignore your post :)
Quote:Peace
Right back at ya!
Dear Muslimah,
I totally understand where you're coming from, darl, but before we continue, you really need to understand the full & proper meaning of the Incarnation as well as some background to Christology. Please visit "Discussion of Beliefs" when you have the chance. I may have answered your questions there but in case my thread ever gets deleted, I'll say something here real quickly...
We're all called to imitate Christ in as much as our (fallen) nature allows us to. Christ was sinless in His humanity! If you think about some of the '99 Names of Allah' (compassionate, forgiving, patient, loving, gracious, generous, just, wise, peaceful, etc), you can see that Allah has created humans with a number of qualities that He possesses infinitely. Christians believe that God made us in His image & likeness. As finite creatures, we're supposed to glorify God in our thoughts, words & actions & allow Him to shine in & through us. Therefore, we can never be the Person Jesus Christ is, but as His followers, it's certainly possible for us to emulate His human behaviour according to our capacity.
Quote:For example Jesus never married, why is it only when one decides to devote to monstery that one never marries? This must have been part of a Christian's life?
One of the names given to the Church is, "Bride of Christ". The Bible speaks of a wedding feast in Heaven between Christ & His spotless Bride (the Church in which the body of believers are incorporated into). Each one of us has a vocation, whether it be religious brotherhood/sisterhood, marriage, or the single life. There are no limitations to living out a life in Christ. If you'd like to know more about celibacy of the priesthood (controversial topic), I'm happy to discuss it, however, it needs its own thread - LOL! As for the consecrated religious life (monks, nuns, brothers, etc), they signify & proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come.
Quote:On another thread she said that the Pope is infallible, does this imply as well that he is of a divine entity?
Absolutely not! The Pope couldn't be more human! He too visits the confessional frequently (as a penitent). He's only infallible when teaching <i>ex-cathedra</i> strictly on matters of 'faith' & 'morals'. When doing so, he's protected from error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In the history of the Church, only one Pope has exercised papal infallibility & that was Pope Pius XII when defining the dogma of the Assumption back in 1851. No Pope has ever formally taught heresy whilst acting as the Vicar of Christ & binding all members of the Church. (sorry about the jargon)
Quote:And FHC, I m not sure what were u apologizing for, I thought this was between u and Wael, but then realised that u were refering to the false info you got regarding the Satanic verses. Well, I wasnt offended, u shouldnt keep in your heart, you learnt a piece of info, how can u verify it? if u kept it to yourself and didnt approach Muslims for it, then u will continue adopting wrong impression about something fundamental.
Thanks Matey! I appreciate it :)