02-01-2007, 02:38 AM
Bismillah:
Assalamo Alikum FHC
Don't worry about it. Maybe it's better if you don't get it.
<b>Alhamdulelah…</b>
For the millionth time... Jesus Christ experienced death in His humanity, not His divinity.
So <b>ONLY death did separate The Father from the Son</b>, so don’t say that both cannot be separated.
Wael, I explained point 1 to you in this thread, & I explained the 2nd point to you in another thread. If I thought there were other members/guests following this topic then I'd go through it again, but I have a feeling it's just you & I - hehe!
Believe me if your explanation was sufficient enough,I would've never mention these points again, still I cannot see that Father and Son are equal.
St Augustine said that it's easier to count every grain of sand along the beach then to fully comprehend the dogma of the Blessed Trinity.
This is exactly what some priests have told me in the Philippines, they even make it clearer to me, they said <b>“Son, we just have to believe in it”. </b>
Even some Christian scholars said the same:
God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, <b>but only accept it</b>."
(Monsignor Eugene Clark)
John Paul II wrote many incredible & truly profound homilies in which he related the Blessed Trinity to the communion of love & everlasting bond between a human family on earth. Of course, there's a huge difference between humans & God, however, JP2 spoke in human terms to emphasize the harmony between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit & unbreakable union between a husband, wife & their child. The collection of homilies were formed into a book titled "Theology of the Body." If you like, I can send you a copy
You mean by email? Yes sure I will appreciate it. :)
But please note that even JP2 declared that <b>"The inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity." </b> (Pope John Paul II)
It is a mystery FHC, can never be clear.
Catholic scholars karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgimler stated in their Theological Dictionary: <b>"The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . ., which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible."</b>
A catholic Scholar admits that Trinity is not going to be fully understandable, just I want you to agree on this point and that’s it.
A L S O…
Historian Will Durant observed: <b>"Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it….From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."</b>
And in the book of Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes:
<b>The Trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows direct link with Christian theology."</b>
In the Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, James Hasting wrote: <b>"In Indian religion, e.g., we meet the Trinitarian group of Braham, Siva, and Visnu; in Egyptian religion, the Trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Hourus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the new-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality." Which is "triadically represented."</b>
Why did you tell me not to mention, "Before Abraham was, I am" ("I am" is what God said to Moses on Mt Sinai).
Because the fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "I am God, worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation?
What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?
Plus, not only Jesus who used the words I AM, if you want to compare between Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59… please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [<b>but] he said, I am [he]</b>." John 9:9.
St John tells us that Jesus' disciples worshipped Him (St John 24:52).
"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" .
Now you may interpret "kneeling down before Jesus." As praying to him, in this case we will have to ask the Bible to explain further:
"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."
1 Samuel 25:23-24
<b>When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. </b>
Similarly,
"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
2 Kings 4:37
"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."
Genesis 50:18
"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"
2 Samuel 19:18
And so on… what we really need to see is clear statement from the master himself, because if he was God, he would never hesitate to declare it plainly to avoid all this kind of confusion. If he was God of the OT, then why he don’t repeat himself <b>EVEN ONCE</b> as saying for example,“I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, BEFORE ME THERE IS NO OTHER GOD, or I AM THE LORD BEFORE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR????
Wael, let me ask you a reverse question... if you were a Christian meditating on Scripture, how could you not know that Jesus is the Son of God?
I said it many times FHC, I don’t have a problem if you call Jesus the son of God, (<b>bear in mind that son of God does not mean GOD HIMSELF</b>)
This term (son of God) doesn’t literally mean ‘SON’, but means servant or righteous man of God, and as you know, <b>not only Jesus was called with this name</b>, there are plenty of other men in the Bible are called Sons of God.
So even if I was a Christian “open minded” I will not stuck to such term to understand that Jesus is God or literally God's son.
If you think that I'd foolishly break God's Commandments, then you don't know me as well as I thought you did!
Like St Thomas, Christians say "My Lord & My God" when they feel that He is near. I say it as soon as I wake up in the morning, when I hop in my car, before a meal, in unfortunate situations when I acknowledge His presence & ask for His divine assistance (like the other day after I'd just found out about your baby), etc.
Firstly I was joking :), secondly I was trying to explain that using such terms doesn’t really imply that Thomas was talking to Jesus pbuh directly or addressing him with those words.
Every Muslim I speak to has identical (word for word) objections/arguments. Where do you learn this stuff, man? LOL!
Same when we talk to Christians, they have the same exact arguments, the difference is that we have our Qur’an in its original text, unchangeable and avialable to everyone who would like to verify, but your Bibles are so many and each sect of Chritianity claims that their Bible is the truth. :conf06:
I'm challenging you to think for yourself!
Ok you win the challenge if this will make you happy :)
Big mistake! The Bible is not open to interpretation. No no no! Of course, God's not the author of confusion. It's Satan who tries to brainwash us.
I mean when reading the Bible you can never understand its verses the same way as others do, because most of its verses are not really clear and straight to the point.
If you're referring to St Matthew 10:5, Jesus sent His apostles out on their first mission they were to avoid preaching to the Gentiles/Samaritans for the time being & spread the good news amongst Jews. The change-over from the old to the new people of God is taking place. Jesus Christ & His followers (St Paul in particular later revealed the Gospel to non-Jews).
No I was referring to Mathew15:24 where he said: <b> “I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”</b>
As you know by now, I'm a perfectionist. I need to know EVERYTHING!!! Any idea why Allah would allow my parents to do that - turn me into a Christian?
Ms Picky :D , am not sure if Sister Muslimah already answered this question or not… in any case I will leave it to her insh a Allah.
Salam
Wael.