01-03-2007, 01:23 PM
G'day my favourite Atheist (sorry JD).
I'll keep this short & sweet :)
I have to ask, what evidence can anyone share to demonstrate that in fact, Jesus <b>is</b> Gods’ <b>S</b>on sent to earth?
2 things: miracles & prophecy.
There it sits, creationism in 2 short poetic chapters. There is no indication that we can ever know anything more about the most significant event in human history and all indications are that as more fossils are found, as scientific tools become more sophisticated and exacting, evolution is going to be more and more supported and defined.
We don't interpret the creation account in Genesis in a literalistic sense (as opposed to literal & spiritual - allegorial, moral & anagogical). There is so much profundity in Genesis, you wouldn't believe it! When you approach the Bible with pre-conceived ideas, you're never going to understand its message.
The Church does not cancel out theistic evolution. If the <i>theory</i> of evolution is ever proven, it won't affect our religion one bit.
Most people don't like incontrovertible truths especially if it removes from them their comfort zone. Most people prefer to believe in gods and spirits and heavens and hells because it comforts them.
Hmmm... please allow me to put it in my own words: The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God & for God; and God never ceases to draw man to Himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for (CCC 27).
that most believe they are going to heaven should tell you something about why they believe as they do.
I'm glad you said most & not all, because Catholics commit the unforgivable sin of presumption if they presume they're guaranteed a place in Heaven.
Not one single verifiable shred of evidence that a god exists (and even an argument that states that if there were proof, it would defeat his requirement for pure faith), and in fact, a very youthful science that shows more and more every day that a god isn't even <i>needed</i> for reality to exist... god theories crumble quickly under the light of scientific knowledge.
God exists. You & I both know that. I choose to enter into real intimacy with Him, you don't. Faith is not whether we believe in God, but rather do we believe God.
There are two worldviews: the one that establishes reality as all encompassing and has no need for the supernatural realm. This is the "rational" (within the bounds of reason exclusively) worldview.
That's not rationality but rather convenience. Face it, there is a God & it's not you!!!
The other view, the theistic view, asserts that reality requires a supernatural causation; thus, the supernatural --and less diplomatic sounding-- "irrational" (outside the bounds of reason exclusively) worldview.
Man is by nature & vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God. When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything (CCC 44, 46). Rational enough for you?
For myself, I don't conceive of my atheism as a belief as much as I conceive it as a conclusion based on the asserted models out there and the lack of evidence to support those assertions. As an example, one can't really consider oneself as having the "belief that Santa doesn't exist". It's just a fact-- Santa doesn't exist, and only those who would assert he does are required to support the claim with evidence.
Here's another example: Let's say I grew up never knowing my dad, Johnny. I've never seen Johnny, I've never spoken to Johnny, I've never touched Johnny, I've never smelled Johnny. I have absolutely no sense perception of Johnny whatsoever. But my mom constantly talks about Johnny. She gives me a gift every Christmas & says Johnny sent it. I come home from work & she tells me Johnny rang earlier to speak to me. I receive an email & it's signed "Love Johnny". What's going on in my mind? Is Johnny just a figure of my imagination? Or does he truly exist? Hmmm... Let's pretend for argument's sake that Johnny is God, my mother is the Catholic Church, the gift is salvation, the phone call is prayer, the email is the Holy Bible. Get the picture? I am a creation of my father (& Father).
Theists acknowledge that god(s) is /are ultimately incomprehensible. If you cannot understand him, then how do you understand what he expects of you? This is a good example of a self-contradictory assertion, although you may not see it that way.
It's very hard for me to talk to you about this because you don't have a clue what the foundation of Christianity is (despite what you may think). Although we can never grasp the infinity of God's Perfection, we can learn something about Him, and we can deepen our knowledge by pondering on what He has told us of His Perfection. Remember, Jesus is the "Word of God" - God's mental Word of Himself. Everything God <i>wanted</i> us to know, He revealed through His Son. Our knowledge is not comphrehensive. We are on a need to know basis, so to speak.
Given that this would be such a great life if existence conformed to our wishes, isn't it much harder to face the cold-hearted truths of reality when life <i>doesn't</i> conform to our desires?
The former is Atheism & the latter is Religion, right?
The evidence leaves us as responsible for our own destiny, the arbiters of justice (or lack thereof), always responsible for the kind of world we live in.
We are responsible for our own destiny. Catholics don't believe in pre-destination.
<i>Are you aware that science has proven every single human on earth is descended from one woman - formally known as Eve???
</i>
I’ve seen nothing to support that claim.
Google it! While you're at it, do a search on "Intelligent Design" too - the scientific research they didn't want you to know about ;)
What do you remember before you were born? Anything? No, of course not. It’s pretty self evident, pre-natal and post mortem are indistinguishable from one another.
I don't remember anything before I reached the age of reason. That's not the point! The second God infuses a soul into a person, it never ceases to exist.
As to the rest of your paragraph, you’re speaking of “feelings”, and a host of non-material concepts including emotions.
All the poetry about feelings and spirit and so on -- reside only in the brain. Remove it, and away it all goes. All of it. Even belief in gods.
Now you demonstrate the spiritual source, which you assert is the actual reason emotions exist and disassemble my case, please.
I wasn't talking about feelings/emotions at all. Humans have a conscience as well as intellect & free-will - found in the spiritual source - the immortal soul. That what sets us apart from other animals.
the theist is in a psychological dilemma of superiority/inferiority -- they are so vaunted by their gods that the entire realm of existence was created exclusively for them, but they are so unworthy that they are but worms in the sight of their deities.
No no no! You have it all wrong! Look, if it weren't for the Incarnation, then maybe you'd be onto something.
Pascal's Wager-- the underlying threat of the theistic argument-- "Gamble that there is a god on the chance he will not send you to an eternity of torture."
I'm not a gambler. I don't love God because I fear hell. I don't love God because I want to go to paradise. My love for God is simply my response to His unconditional & everlasting love for me.
a. What if you have chosen the wrong god? You will spend an eternity apart from your “real” god for making such an egregious error
There's only one God.
b. "Betting" on god displays prideful ego and might anger god, and you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error
It's not a game you clown :D
c. God might prefer courage of one's convictions instead of cowardice and self-deceit, in which case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error
You need to read Jesus' parables.
d. What if the gods deplore such self-serving narcissism and instead embraces the atheist for not succumbing to threats of a human nature? In that case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error.
Cut it out!
You know what... there are no Atheists in Heaven or Hell. Do you know why?
e. What if the gods are revolted by the very suggestion that there is something like an "eternal punishment"? In that case you might spend eternity apart from him for making such an egregious error.
No one spoke about hell more han Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did. Don't fool yourself into believing that hell doesn't exist. When the Virgin Mary appeared to the 3 children at Fatima, she was crying. She was so sad because of the numerous souls that chose the evil path on earth & ended up in hell. Consider it a warning - haha!
Your comments are couched in terms of using the Bible to prove the Bible is true.
You're a former Bible Christian who doesn't accept & honor Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition with equal sentiment of devotion & reverence. True or false?
But empirically we have progressed in our science and technology to see farther and farther, deeper and deeper, and there's no reason to assume it won't continue.
I wanna tell you a funny joke - please laugh :lol:
One day a group of Darwinian scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one Darwinian to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The Darwinian walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost." God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the Darwinian was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the Darwinian happily agreed. God added,
"Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The Darwinian said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt. God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!!!!"
You’re being dishonest. The three Abrahamic faiths are relatively recent in humans reign on the planet. We’re obviously here. We’ve obviously evolved.
Speak for yourself. I don't even like bananas - LOL! The Aborigines, who are the most ancient human inhibitants (& decendents of Adam & Eve) believe in God (their own version). Religion has always existed. It's getting a little out of hand now but that's more of a reflection on us than God.
As I noted in my prior post, morality is both transitory and subjective.
Pity it's self-defeating!
I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...
The N/T is hidden in the O/T & the O/T is revealed in the N/T. I don't even know where to start! Basically, God's greatest work isn't Creation but Redemption! It all makes sense when you piece the puzzle together.
I wouldn't drown them all.
It has to do with cleansing. It's typology. Prefigures Baptism.
I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.
Are we still talking about Catholicism???
I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.
God can't create evil. Lucifer is a fallen angel. Evil is like darkness or coldness. It's the absence of something - lack of goodness = evil; lack of light = darkness; lack of heat = coldness.
I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.
We condemn ourselves to hell. The definition of hell is "being seperated from God." The choice is ours!
I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.
This is a hard one to talk about! Ummm... all I'll say for now is... God will not permit evil unless we gain a greater good out of it. In this imperfect world, we must take the bad on board with the good, but it's temporary. The Son of God became Man to unite His Divinity with our humanity. Through Jesus Christ, God took on human suffering... & conquered it! I know, I know, I'm all by myself on this one (Islamic forum). But if only you guys could see the beauty & awe in this profound truth. It's life-changing... literally!
The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. You may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things, remember?
I usually charge for a Theology lecture but your first lesson's free :P
The whole Bible is a marriage contract. It's the manual of unconditional love! When God's people continually disobeyed Him, He remained with them. In the covenant between God & mankind, one side constantly violates it, the other remains faithful & always will. When Adam & Eve sinned, God punished them but promised a redeemer; when Cain killed Abel, God punished Cain but protected him. When Moses sinned, God punished him but kept his promises, when God's chosen people, Israel, sinned over & over, God punished them time & time again, but He never abandonded them... etc etc etc.
Great. It would appear that there’s nothing “morally” wrong with selling child and making a few bucks.
No idea where you came up with that conclusion!
Until that happens, and we all know it won't unless Jesus actually does come back
Jesus never left us or this world. But yes, you will see Him face to face at the end of time.
then as long as we are alive evolution remains the most supported, most logical, most demonstrable paradigm by which we can explain the existence of life on Earth
Turn it up! You weren't there when apes became humans! Have we all of a sudden stopped evolving? If I'm ever blessed to have children, will they have more fingers? Wings to fly? A larger brain capacity? In my opinion, we have evolved in nothing but stupidity!
I think you’re an intelligent woman who demonstrates with every post that you have a passion for your belief and can express it better than anyone on this board.
It's not the time nor the place for compliments. We're at war here - LOL!
Thanks RT! I got more than I bargained for when I registered on these boards. You're always one of the highlights of my day :)
However, I have no reason to believe that Zeus will condemn me to everlasting torment for not succumbing to what he has not provided evidence to support. Thanks Zeus.
Just be the best Atheist you can be & make Epicurus proud! But please don't lose the Christian virtues you were raised with. Hopefully, the momentum of Christianity which is carrying you along will inevitably spend itself in this or a future generation.
Actually, I’ve been rushing this response before the moderators block my log-in.
:( :( :(
If you get blocked, I plan to go on strike - hehe!
and this god then inspired a book but did not allow the original to last in case the condemned to damnation by definition humans worship those texts... and allowed copies of copies to multiply so that huge civilizations would clash with one another over interpretations...
I'm not saying we're better than other Christians, but today's Catholic Bibles (the ones with the Church's tick of approval) match the manuscripts of the first few centuries AD. I guarantee you that the translation of the Bible I use is more identical to St Jerome's Vulgate (4th Century AD) then my remastered version of Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics" compared with earlier copies of the text.
Please don't blame God for human error.
and this god then comes down to earth as a human to act as a mediator to experience human weakness and pain and sin
Jesus didn't experience sin in His Perfect, Sinless human nature. Indeed He was surrounded by it.
that he created in the first place anyway
Sin does not have its origin with God. Someone pass me a drill, please!
and he's letting billions upon billions of people suffer
Why is it when something goes wrong in the world, we blame God, but when something good happens, we pat ourselves on the back?
You know what's weird? St Rafqa asked God to grant her participation in Christ's suffering. She wanted to suffer freely with Christ. She prayed non-stop for a stigmata. She suffered so patiently & offered it all up to God. Her story is so inspirational.
I'm not saying we should all follow her example (I wish I had her fortitude though), but I'm just trying to point out how the power of God's love can move us.
Just a side note - we see stars forming today by the way, in the Pleiades-- various stages of stars being formed are quite visible.
I sing for joy at the work of His Hands!
Ignorance is bliss
Being ignorant is okay. Remining ignorant is not okay!
<i>"Our hearts are restless, O Lord, until they rest in Thee" (St Augustine).</i>