12-28-2006, 04:10 AM
<b>Peace be with all!</b>
Please let's not allow this discussion to turn into a debate. Muslims... we, Christians will deal with your queries. There's no point in asking us questions & then providing convenient answers for yourselves. Christians... keep in mind that we are proclaiming the Word of God & we must do so in the loving manner Jesus taught us... without personal attacks. This is not a battle! We can all learn a lot from one another :)
My friend, Jacques (who is awaiting authorization to access these threads) asked me to enter his response to the first few posts, before we move on to next ones. Apologetics is his forte ;)
Mr. wel_mel_2:
"So, do you really believe that Jesus Christ is actually transformed into the physical appearance of bread and wine?"
No. The physical appearances & characteristics (called "accidents") of bread and wine do not change, their substance changes.
"Can you actually worship this “bread-god”?"
There is no bread-god. After the Consecration, the bread and wine are totally transformed to become the most holy Body and most precious Blood of Christ our Savior. What you see then, is no longer bread and wine, it is Christ Himself, the bread and wine no longer exist, but, through a divine miracle, though their substance is changed, their accidents remain.
"Do you really believe that this piece of bread which was made by human hands can be sacrificed for your sins and then you are granted salvation?"
No. The Son of God is the sacrifice.
"Also doesn’t the Bible say that:"
The Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament are written by the holy Apostles to the Church, & we know that they are inspired only because the Church has judged, by her divine authority, that they are so. Thus, to suppose that these Sacred Scriptures, written by the Church's teachers, for the Church, and whose authority is established by the Church- do you suppose they can contradict the same teachings of the same Church?
"… we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10: 10-14"
That is exactly what the Apostles taught the Church, exactly what the Church has taught, teaches, and will teach until the return of Christ her divine Spouse.
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:9"
That is exactly what the Apostles taught the Church, exactly what the Church has taught, teaches, and will teach until the return of Christ her divine Spouse.
"So how can you believe that he truly, really, and substantially present in the forms of bread and wine?"
Because He said so, because His Apostles said so, because the Church He established says so.
I hope that clears things up :)
Mr. AlShamms:
"During the mass, priests allegedly claim the bread and wine transforms into the actual and literal body and blood of Jesus Christ"
That's what Christ Himself established.
"This Catechism quote reveals that the Catholic church still adheres to this doctrine which was defined at the Council of Trent"
You bet it does :) The Church that Christ has established about 2000yrs ago is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), she cannot and will not change any of her life-giving teachings that the most holy Apostles of Christ deposited in her.
(Unlike heretics who establish false dens hundreds of years after the true Church was established and call them "churches", who keep changing doctrines to suit the times and whims of their followers.)
"Since Catholicism is teaching members to partake in literal cannibalism"
Since we eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ under the species of bread and wine, it cannot be considered cannbalism. This same charge was refuted by St. Justin Martyr ca. AD 150 when the Romans accused Christians of the same. Protestants, who came 1500yrs after the true Church, are not even good at imitating old heretics & infidels.
But let us stretch our imagination suppose that it is truly cannibalistic, and let us stretch it further and suppose that the words of Christ are not literal, but rather symbolic. Are you saying that Christ wants us to engage in symbolic cannibalism? And if cannibalism is a sin & forbidden by God as you claim, is Christ saying whoever commits symbolic sinful acts will abide in Him, and whoever does not will not have eternal life?
Do you imagine God commanding us to engage in symbolic adultery? symbolic murder?
Such is the folly of these ungodly accusations.
"'... For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.' John 6:33-35
This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body"
You have created a false dichotomy between believing in Christ and eating His holy flesh & drinkind His sacred blood, as if the two are mutually exclusive. This is the result of a strained logic, like a one-eyed cat trying to chase two rats.
Such opposition did not exist in the mind of Christ, nor the Apostles, nor the Church. On the contrary, believing in Christ and coming to Him are necessary before one can receive the Holy Eucharist. Thus, St. Augustine rightly says that no one eats the Holy Eucharist unless He adores it first.
"Jesus was talking spiritually, not physically"
Of course He was. Why then do you think that carnal minds have misunderstood Christ ever since He uttered those words? Why do you think all those disciples left Him because of that "hard teaching"? Yet Christ does not compromise the truth for the sake of carnal minds, on the contrary, He elevates the carnal minds to the divine and sublime truths.
"He was explaining that spiritually, all life comes through faith in Him, not eating His body."
Thus you have rendered the plain meaning invalid, & set up a false opposition between the two which are declared mutually necessary for each other.
"When Jesus said, "Take, eat: this is my body," He was not suggesting that they reach out and begin eating His literal body. To even suggest such is ridiculous."
Of course that is ridiculous. Yet nobody claimed that. You are setting up a straw-man, trying to refute something that is not related to the real subject.
He was giving them His Body under the species of Bread, not under its proper species.
So I would have to say that the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation is NOT Biblically sound.
If you think that quoting a few Scriptures and interpreting them according to your beliefs makes your beliefs true, remember that Satan himself quoted Scripture, and you don't have any advantage over him in quoting Scriptures.
I would encourage you to read this very small article:
http://www.freewebs.com/jacques7/Summa/Eucharist.mht
Or if you prefer .doc format: http://www.freewebs.com/jacques7/Summa/Eucharist.doc
Thank you :)
<b>God bless you my dear friends.</b>