Bismillah:
Nope! Same personality! Same essence! Same attributes!
You are totally going against the Catholic catechism… moreover; you are claiming that all of them have died on the cross by being SAME person and SAME essence. if this is wrong, then you can never call them <b>ONE.</b>
According to your catechism regarding Trinity, it says:
We do not confess three Gods, but one God in <b>three</b> <b>persons</b>
, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons <b>do not share the one divinity among themselves </b>
but each of them is God whole and entire.
The divine persons are really <b>distinct from one another</b>
. "God is one <b>but not solitary</b>
."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, <b>for they are really distinct from one another</b>
: <b>"He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin:</b>
"It is the Father who generates, <b>the Son who is begotten</b>
, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."
So you do believe that all of them are ONE GOD, but at the same time they are <b>THREE DISTINCT PRESONS</b>, <b>and not one person,</b> <b>not having the same attributes, and even their knowledge of the Day of Judgment is kept secret to the Father ONLY</b>, <b>neither the Son, nor the Spirit have any knowledge of that day</b>. So how can you say that they are all having the same personality, essence and attributes?
And by the way, <b>am not trying to teach you Catholicism</b>, I am only trying to present to you my simple understanding, because am not going be so blind to believe in something which does not make sense <i>“to me at least”</i> (with due respect to you and your beliefs).
Wael, I have no idea where you got that version from, but here is the Nicene Creed that Catholics have professed day after day since the 4th Century AD..
Subhan Allah, this was the translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form.. You may check this link. Nicene Creed
But even if it was wrong (for the sake of discussion) , doesn’t the Bible (which is more important to you than any other Creed) say in John 3:16 “For <b>GOD</b> so loved the world, that he gave his only <b>BEGOTTEN SON</b>!!!” So here again your Bible clearly states that <b>Jesus is the begotten son of God</b>, so who are you to say that
Quote:“we do not say that God begot a son”
Dude, when Jesus was on the cross, He recited a line from the Book of Psalms. It was aimed at the Jews who refused to believe that He is the Son of God. Psalm 22 begins with the verse, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me..." It also includes the passage, "A company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet. I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots." This is exactly what took place at Christ's crucifixion. The Jews who sing the psalms as part their daily devotion, would've been able to make sense of what was going on & realized that Christ is the Messiah who was prophesized in the O/T.
Are you sure that this is the only time he called the father MY GOD ?
Didn’t he also say that: “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to <b>my God</b>, and your God” - (JOHN 20:17)
Not only is God Jesus' father, <b>but He is also his GOD</b>
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord <b>OUR GOD </b> is one Lord:… Mark 12:29
<b>OUR GOD, including himself. </b>
Wael, I joined this forum to learn about Islam. I'm not going to argue with you. You're entitled to your own opinions. According to the Church's interpretation of Scripture, we hold different beliefs.
most welcome to learn about Islam. however, please be informed that i am not arguing here, I am presenting my view point, you may accept it or reject it, it is totally up to you. And it is also good chance for me to learn something <i>NEW</i> about Catholicism from you. (if you don’t mind)
<b>Church’s interpretation of the Bible is huge thing FHC</b>, and I don’t think so you are going to accept the Protestant interpretation or the Anglican Church interpretation of the Bible, because they themselves have <b>thrown out 7 whole books from the Bible and called them ‘doubtful’</b>, even some Christian denominations declared that <b>Jesus pbuh was not God</b>. so I don’t think you are going to believe in such thing, and the reason is always vague.
St John's Gospel (1:1-10) is a good place to start. It's one of many profound & meditative texts in the Holy Bible.
You may search on the web, we have discussed John 1:1 with CC and other Christians guests here, so you can see my responses.
Wael, the next time you see a Christian worshipping Mary, please do me a favour & tell them that they're in error! Worship is due to God alone.
Don’t worry, I am working on it insha’Allah.
The only thing Mary can do for Christians is intercede for us.
Any reference from the Bible?
So in actual fact, we aren't praying to Mary, we're asking her to pray for us
<b>Is she alive today to pray for you? </b>
Rosary is a great prayer to pray to God WITH the Virgin Mary
Do you have right to call her <b>the mother of God </b> during Rosary? Does the Bible give you the right to call her with this title? <b>any reference from the Bible ? </b>
Bro, Please be careful how you interpret the Bible. The death penalty is not condemned by the Church but the abuse of it most certainly is!
then we are in agreement here.
One example is during the Last Supper (St Matthew 26:27)... "This is my blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
You must not forget that Jesus (pbuh) also informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.
And as you know that God the father is greater than all human being, <b>including Jesus</b>, you also know that Jesus pbuh <b>have no power of his own</b>, and that all miracles that he performed <b>were the work of God alone</b>.
So it stands to reason that what is easy for Jesus (pbuh) is trivial and inconsequential for God Almighty Himself. Thus, if Jesus (pbuh) can forgive sins with the utmost ease simply by uttering the words <i>"your sins are forgiven you," </i> then it is well within the ability of God Almighty Himself to do the same simply by willing it, even without uttering a word. The Bible says:
"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy."
Micah 7:18
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."
Psalm 78:38-39
"I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."
Isaiah 43:25
How then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a <b>sinless</b> individual before He can do this? Hear what the Bible said:
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; <b>that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin." </b>
Jeremiah 36:3
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, <b>and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." </b>
Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; <b>and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah." </b>
Psalm 32:5
<b>"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..." </b>
Proverbs 16:6
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; <b>then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." </b>
2 Chronicles 7:14
<b>"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." </b>
Proverbs 21:3
<b>"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." </b>
Hosea 6:6
And finally here is what the Qur’an says regarding forgivness:
"Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful."
The noble Qur'an, 39:53
Wael, now you've got me thinking... I wonder whether Muslims would embrace Christianity if they learnt the truth about the faith rather than a false & distorted account of it
Maybe if you really prove that what has been said is false. But sadly until today the Bible contains a lot of statements which are ambiguous and can be interpreted and understood in many different ways, not only among Muslims, but even the Christians themselves do not understand the Bible the same way. so the Truth that you are talking about can easily be verified when reading the Bible. "if you know what i mean"
Salam
Wael.