10-02-2006, 02:55 AM
Bismillah:
Quote:It is official. You are now reaching harder to deny what I am saying than I am to justify it.
Ok, whatever, <b>but am not denying what the Bible says about Jesus</b>… and that’s why <b>many other Christians came to the same conclusion that Jesus is not God and they are still Christians by they way…. Not Muslims</b>.
Quote:I understand that Christ does not mean God, but when the Jews ask Jesus "are you the Christ", the answer that he gives equates himself with God. They know that, and they are proportionally upset. And so I put the question back to you: If Jesus did not mean that he is God, if he just meant "I am a prophet", then why did he not clarify things when the Jews are ready to stone him? Why then did Jesus not say "Sorry, I meant that I and the father are one purpose". You keep wanting him to speak plainly, then when he does, you say his words have a different meaning. Again, you're working a whole lot harder here trying to say "Jesus didn't really mean that he and the father are one" than I am in just revealing it.
I already explained this part… he did inform the Jews that he already told them before <b>but they didn't believe </b> (what did he tellthem before)??? he show them miracles, wonders and signs which no ordinary man could perform, he show them many times that <b>he was the Christ</b>… didn't he tell them before "... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
(Matthew 13:13) <b>then how can you claim that the Jews did understand what Jesus really meant while Jesus himself said that they do not understand??? </b> he also told them that these miracles were not his own,<b> but God did by him </b> <b>the work of his father</b>, he said to them in the same verse that the father is greater than himself… <b>how can anyone say that Jesus is God if he is not the greatest. </b>
Quote:Jesus cannot mean what he plainly says, because it does not agree with your preconception that he is a prophet, and not God.
You see, am not bringing verses from my Qur’an to claim that he was a prophet; <b>even his followers in your Bible knew that he was a Prophet</b>… <b>and God Almighty can never be a Prophet.
</b>
"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet."
Matthew 14:5 (compare with Matthew 21:26)
"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."
Matthew 21:11
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."
Matthew 21:46
"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19
"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19
"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." John 6:14
"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet." John 7:40
Indeed, how did Jesus himself describe himself? Let us read:
"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." Luke 13:33
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. Matthew 13:57
The followers of Christ considered God to be <b>their "Father," not Jesus.</b>
Quote:Therefore, he meant not "I and the father are one", but "I and the father are one in purpose, not in essence". I will admit, what he is saying is difficult to understand. In fact, it is the most difficult thing anyone has ever said, ever.
Ok, but do you remember what I’ve requested from you and from all other Christians??? I need to see o<b>ne single unequivocal statement from the lips of Jesus Christ where he say I am God or where he say worship me</b>… this will definitely remove any doubts was caused by ambiguous statements, bt he did not, did he? please show me.... what i've seen in the BIBle is that <b>Jesus worshipped God. So?? He is not God. </b>
Quote:Who gives the sheep eternal life? Jesus himself. How on earth can he do that if he is not God?
He shows them <b>the way </b> to inherit eternal life... you see this is the problem with you guys when always take things literally… look what <b>he said </b> about eternal life to have better understanding:
<b>Luke 10</b>
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: "<b> 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " </b>
28. "<b>You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." </b>
this is how he is giving eternal life, but showing and teaching the way to attain salvation.
So as you can see, Jesus in the NT is clearly <b>not</b> ‘giving eternal life by himself’ but showing the way to inherit it.
Quote:I happen to know that as Muslims, you believe that Jesus ascended up to heaven...bodily. Without dying. That means he is separate from all those other prophets, who will die like mere men.
<b>Yes but he is going to die after his second coming as mere man too.</b>
Quote:Who else but God is able to do what God does? Call Jesus a liar, if you will. But if he is telling the truth, then his is doing what God does (again, said plainly for those who ask him to speak plainly), means that he can be no less than God himself. You can try to explain this away all you like, but it seems pretty clear. Jesus, when asked to speak plainly, speaks. He tells them that He and the Father are one, that He does what His Father does, that He is different from the rulers in the Old Testament who would die and whose empires would fall like mere mortals, and that he is the one who has come to judge the world. Having said all this, it is right for Jesus to state: "all may honor the Son just as they honor the father. He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent him".
He also said <b>i can do nothing of my own</b>. He do what God does because this is <b>God's will and not Jesus'</b>… <b>he does no miracles, he does NOTHING</b>, but God almighty allowed him to do these things to support his position as a Prophet and messenger of God.
Salam
Wael.