10-01-2006, 02:24 PM
It is official. You are now reaching harder to deny what I am saying than I am to justify it.
I understand that Christ does not mean God, but when the Jews ask Jesus "are you the Christ", the answer that he gives equates himself with God. They know that, and they are proportionally upset. And so I put the question back to you: If Jesus did not mean that he is God, if he just meant "I am a prophet", then why did he not clarify things when the Jews are ready to stone him? Why then did Jesus not say "Sorry, I meant that I and the father are one purpose". You keep wanting him to speak plainly, then when he does, you say his words have a different meaning. Again, you're working a whole lot harder here trying to say "Jesus didn't really mean that he and the father are one" than I am in just revealing it.
As regards the "spiritual blinkers" you say I wear (I assume you mean spiritual blinders, as opposed to spiritual indicators), when Jesus himself is asked to speak plainly, then does, I am not going to put additional meaning onto that like you do. That is what you have accused the Christians of doing all along, and yet at the one point where it is plain, you fall into the same trap. There must be additional meanings there, Jesus cannot mean what he plainly says, because it does not agree with your preconception that he is a prophet, and not God. Therefore, he meant not "I and the father are one", but "I and the father are one in purpose, not in essence". I will admit, what he is saying is difficult to understand. In fact, it is the most difficult thing anyone has ever said, ever. That is what makes it so compelling. You can't respect him as a prophet if he comes right out and says "I and God are one". Nobody else has ever made that claim without being a fool, the devil, or God himself. And it is precisely that that makes us want to see Him as less than that. We want to be able to understand God as something far-off, untouchable, and distant. But Jesus, who was very God, and told us as much in John, is deeply personal, and comes to us as human beings on Earth. I'll admit, it's tough for us to wrap our heads around, but there it is. He told you, and you have the choice to accept what he said, or to try valliantly to explain it away.
If you care, look at the verses where Jesus talks about the sheep again:
"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one"
Who gives the sheep eternal life? Jesus himself. How on earth can he do that if he is not God? How can mortal man, no matter how favored by God, give eternal life to anyone? They can bring the message of eternal life, they can share the goodness of God, but they cannot give eternal life. That is a property unique to God alone.
And as you have seen from this translation (NRSV), the verses you hang so much on, relies on a selective translation...exactly what you have accused Christians of on this thread. NRSV: What my father has given me is greater than all else"
NIV: "My father, who is greater than all else".
Even if it was the NIV translation that we were accepting as correct, the argument still stands: The Father is greater than all else, but Jesus is one with the Father. One God, from ages to ages.
As regards Psalm 82: Keep reading: 6 "I say 'you are gods, children of the most high, all of you; 7: nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince"
I happen to know that as Muslims, you believe that Jesus ascended up to heaven...bodily. Without dying. That means he is separate from all those other prophets, who will die like mere men.
<b>Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were called 'gods') and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in other words he is saying: "you can't contradict me!" Jesus knows his Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies that: "If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as 'gods' in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself is far inferior in our language, viz. 'A son of God' as against others being called 'gods' by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself as 'god' in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no fault with me." This is the plain reading of Christian Scripture and many other Christians sects interpreted and understood the same context as Muslims. </b>
Interesting. You know, that interpretation takes into account that good men, holy men of God were called gods in the books of authority. Let's look at psalm 82, though. These prophets, these good holy men "know nothing, understand nothing. They walk around in darkness, and all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, 'you are gods, you are sons of the Most High', but you will die like mere men, you will fall like every other ruler. Rise up, O God, Judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance".
These are not good prophets. These are judges, who have lost their way, and do not look to God for wisdom. They know nothing, and walk in darkness. And when these men are in charge of justice, the world shakes. Is Jesus lumping himself in with this crowd? I highly doubt it. He knows, the scriptures, and so do the Jews, who understand what he means, and know about the last verse: "Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance".
Check John 5:27: "And he has given Him authority to judge, because He is the Son of Man". Jesus is the fulfillment of that last verse! He is not backing away from what he said about he and the Father being one, he is reinforcing it! He continues, "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does".
Who else but God is able to do what God does? Call Jesus a liar, if you will. But if he is telling the truth, then his is doing what God does (again, said plainly for those who ask him to speak plainly), means that he can be no less than God himself. You can try to explain this away all you like, but it seems pretty clear. Jesus, when asked to speak plainly, speaks. He tells them that He and the Father are one, that He does what His Father does, that He is different from the rulers in the Old Testament who would die and whose empires would fall like mere mortals, and that he is the one who has come to judge the world. Having said all this, it is right for Jesus to state: "all may honor the Son just as they honor the father. He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent him".