09-30-2006, 07:05 AM
Bismillah:
Quote:1 - Jesus' words were not to 21st century Muslims. They were to first century Jews, who understood the implication of invoking the ancient and sacred name of God. "I AM" meant to the Jews the same thing as saying "I am God".
So they understand and we did not… ok in this case, we cannot prove anything because even you were not there with them in the first century and so if he was God, he should be the God for those who understand his weird language. But for me, <b>these words does not prove his divinity</b>. They are not clear and <b>they are open for many interpretation. </b> what we are looking for is <b>clear statement</b>
now there are few points to mention:
Since Jesus never said it <b>PLAINLY</b> that he is God Almighty the Creator of everything, then:
Are you claiming that Jesus is incapable when telling his disciples<b> "worship the Father only” to add the words "...and the Son because we are the same God"? </b>
Are there <b>no words in his language to say "I am God therefore worship me”, “worship both of us"? </b>
Now when Jesus said<b> "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” </b> the problem with your interpretation (<b>actually with all Christians</b>) is that they "interpret" the words <b>"he" and "him" to mean "we" and "us"</b> <b>when it suits them</b>, in cases such as Luke 4:8, they claim that<b> "him" really means "us." </b> But in cases where God "begets" Jesus, or where God "sacrifices" Jesus, or where Jesus <b>died,</b> “him" and "he" is God alone or Jesus alone and <b>does not mean "us" and "we."</b> … Subhan Allah.
Quote:2 - Looking for a single verse where Jesus says that he and God are the same....
John 10:30: "I and the father are one". That, in Greek, is in the neuter, not in the masculine, so "one essence" over "one person". You can say I am slanting the Greek, but Jesus is saying that he and the father <b>are one</b>. Thus the I AM earlier, in case you didn't follow him. That is what Jesus declared about himself. He and the father are one.
And the earlier verse still stands. To his audience, who knows the Old Testament, He was saying that He was God. Thus they tried to stone him. Why? Because
John 10:33: "We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God".
They got what Jesus was saying. You do not. And I understand that you will not, so that's fine. You've helped me to defend my faith, and to look back and ensure that Jesus is divine.
It has been interesting sparring verbally with you. You make a good case, and you've been well taught.
"How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my father's hand. <b>I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE</b>.
All that he says about God applies to himself as well. And the Jews felt the need to stone him. Because they could not understand that Jesus could be God, even though he could be nothing else.
I know you're going to quote John 17, saying that Jesus prayed: "Protect them by the power of YOUR name - THE NAME YOU GAVE ME - so that they may be one, as we are one."
The disciples should be as united in mind and purpose as God the Father and God the Son. Father and Son are of the same essence, the disciples are of one essence as well. And they should continue to be united in purpose as well. Oh, and here, Jesus says that the name of the Father is the name that is his name as well.
Very simple, again this verse is open for another interpretation… <b>he and his father are one IN WHAT??</b> In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! <b>They are one in PURPOSE</b>. read the verses again start from John10:23 and you will see that <b>as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.</b>
And no, am not going to quote John 17 (<b>although the same ONE used in John 10:30 was also used in John 17</b>)
<b>But here are more verse carrying the same meaning </b>
"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"
1 Corinthians 6:15-17
Another example:
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:6
And
"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
Now the message of Paul was clear that:
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:4
"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. <b>Then why cant you apply the same thing to John 10???</b>
if he was God he should have said it plainly.
Salam
Wael.