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wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-30-2006, 03:06 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:I showed you where Jesus said that he was God. He used the words "I AM" which is exactly what God called himself in the Old Testament. You are overlooking that. But even then, why would Jesus use the present tense for the verb, instead of the past tense? This is more than him being ordained as a prophet, this is him existing before all time.

First of all you did not show me any single verse where Jesus said I am God… what you show me is something which is very ambiguous and insufficient... here is why:

Let us consider for the sake of argument that Jesus pbuh meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham, is this sufficient ground to say that he was divine? If Jesus was there before Abraham and then came down to earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish that he was God, using these words “I am” are open to other interpretation, you can’t imagine Prophet Jeremiah who had a pre-human existence and so you find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portray such a situation, if taken literally why not apply a similar understanding in the case of John 8:58??

Now you are connecting Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58 to mean that BOTH TERMS were used by God the father and God the son, and so they are one. Am I right? ….. Ok, you know well that the original of the first quotation was in Hebrew while the original of the second was in Greek, all but a few of Jesus’ words were recorded in Greek, and for 200 years before the time of Jesus, the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew Scriptures, The Septuagint. This word translated is the key phrase “I am” of Exodus as HO ON, while the words of Jesus “I am” have been given to us in Greek as EGO EIMI, Now if the gospel writer of John 8:58 wanted to tell his Greek speaking people that Jesus had imitated God, he would have used the familier words of the Septuagint, otherwise the point would be lost. So your evidence of John 8:58 is far from conclusive.

Quote:Melchizadek is listed as being "like the son of God". Keep reading to Hebrews 7:11 and following. With all this discussion of Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizadek, is the case being made that he and Melchizadek are equal? Not really. Melchizadek's ancestry, birth and death are unknown, yet he is a priest. That is what it is.

His birth and death are unknown???, 
the Bible should say that not you… but the Bible clearly says that he is Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; … these are the quality of God alone

Quote:We're getting Greek now, are we? Oh, very good. Yes, that word is in greek, and yes, it means to bow, keel, and to prostrate. It also means to worship. But, even if Jesus was being bowed to, crouched before, crawled before, knelt before, or prostrated before, would he not have stopped it, were he not God? Bowing before Jesus IS bowing before God.

Am using the same method of your Scholars who taught me that sometimes we need to go back to the original writings in order to understand certain situations in the Bible… and so you must know that according to the lexical aids to the Bible, the proper Greek word for 'worship' is 'sebomai' (4576) from the root 'seb'. That word 'sebomai' is used by Matthew in 15:9 where Jesus said; "But in vain do they worship me, ..." so if the Bible wanted to convey that Jesus was worshipped', then the authors of the Bible should have used the word 'sebomai' which they did not. and so am still looking for unequivocal statement from the lips of Jesus Christ where he say I am God or where he say worship me, and so the question of Jesus stopping them for worshipping, therefore does not arise, because they simply bowed or prostrated to him as a sign of respect and honor and not as God
.

Quote:David was a king. You bow before kings. It's only right. You don't worship them. Who was Jesus king of, to get this secular prostration?

Ok forget about David, he was a King and people used to bow and prostrate to them in olden days.. but how about Elisha and Joseph of Genesis?

"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
2 Kings 4:37

"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."
Genesis 50:18

Quote:Is that the challenge now? I thought all I had to do was find the one verse?
That was the challenge. To find a single verse where Jesus said he was God. You've basically said I've done that. He used God's name in reference to himself. He called himself God.

You didn’t meet the challenge yet… you are like drowning in the middle of the sea and finally, you found a piece of wood, then you swim with difficulty towards it to save yourself. The verse you have quoted in fact disprove Jesus’ divinity.

Quote:So people wouldn't get confused. Like you obviously have done. I'll break it down for you. Jesus shows and displays all the majesty and power of God. He has existed from eternity, he healed the sick, raised the dead, walked on water, had power over storms, etc. And he says "give all glory to God", but does not object when people call Him God, or when people worship him.

Ok here is another story, first, Jesus did not perform miracles on his own, he didn’t raise the dead, and he never controls the storms… all these miracles were performed by God Almighty (whom you call The Father) through Jesus, in other words, God used Jesus as instrument to perform these miracles… and here what the Bible said:

1. Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Means the power is not belongs to Jesus.

2. Luke 11:20: "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils." Not on his own.

3. Matthew 12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God." again not on his own.

4. John 5:30: "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." He can do nothing on his own “God”.

5. John 10:25: "the works that I do in my Father's name." 

6. John 8:28-29 "...I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." The father indeed deserve our worship and not Jesus.

7. Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” and this is my point. God did the miracles by Jesus.

Plus Jesus pbuh himself tells us that miracles by themselves do not prove anything:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect
" Matthew 24:24

So even false Christs can supply great wonders and miracles of such magnitude that even the most knowledgeable among men shall be deceived. So miracles does not prove that Jesus is God.

Quote:They're both God.

Ok so now you are telling me that the term worship the father ONLY means worship both of US????… well, no comments.

Quote:Because they're one God. I know Muslimsl in general can't see that as anything but polytheism, but that's where it is right there.

if both are God, then we should at least read one single verse where there is clear explanation that they are both are the same God… but when you read the Bible you see the exact opposite. So what I can see now is that Christianity is based on what people have said about Jesus pbuh and not what he declares about himself.

Salam

Wael.

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