09-29-2006, 04:38 PM
Bismillah:
Are you saying that you really found where Jesus said <b>I am God</b>? is the term <b>I am </b> means <b>I am God</b>? cant you see that the word 'God' is missing in the statement that Jesus used?? please show me where he said <b>I am God </b> and so <b>worship me</b>… but what i can see in the Bible is that Jesus <b>can do nothing on his own</b>, <b>the words he spoke are no his own</b>, that <b>he does not know about the day of judgment</b>, that <b>God used him to perform these miracles</b>… are you still saying that he is God… come on please…
<b>I showed you where Jesus said that he was God. He used the words "I AM" which is exactly what God called himself in the Old Testament. You are overlooking that. But even then, why would Jesus use the present tense for the verb, instead of the past tense? This is more than him being ordained as a prophet, this is him existing before all time.</b>
<b>Wisdom speaking?</b> Is this another mystery like trinity? This interpretation makes no sense at all.
<b>Proverbs 8:1-2: Does not Wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?" That's not my interpretation. That's who is listed as speaking. It's a personification. I take it you didn't read the passage in question before posting about it.</b>
Really the verse does not need your comments… it is clear cut statement.. it says that this King of Salem <b>IS</b> Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life… so if anyone claim that Jesus is God, then Melchazdics is a greater God…
<b>Melchizadek is listed as being "like the son of God". Keep reading to Hebrews 7:11 and following. With all this discussion of Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizadek, is the case being made that he and Melchizadek are equal? Not really. Melchizadek's ancestry, birth and death are unknown, yet he is a priest. That is what it is.</b>
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in <b>John 9:9</b>, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
<b>I've already adressed this. Jesus' words are using the ancient name of God, which God himself gave. Part of that is attaching eternity (a power of God) with Jesus, which he did. When the beggar says it, he is speaking of himself, and answering questions about someone who healed him, someone else who used the power of God. Yes, someone else says I am, but you'll notice that they don't pick up stones to stone the beggar. They aren't saying the same thing.</b>
Don’t you know that Jeremiah was made a prophet <b>before his birth?</b> Why cant you understand that Jesus was also saying that he was there in the plan and knowledge of God before Prophet Abraham was sent?
<b>Jeremiah was ordained as a prophet before his birth, that is true. But Jesus was more than that. He clearly isn't saying "before Abraham, I was conceived as a plan in God's eyes, and ordained to be a prophet when I was born". Rather, he says "Before Abraham was, I AM". He has existed, been himself for all this time.</b>
<b>"Before I formed thee in the belly (of your mother) I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."</b>
Jeremiah 1:5
Note that Jesus did not ask him <b>“do you believe in me as God”? </b> he said do you believe in the <b>Son of man</b>… and also the term Lord does not always mean God… now the man worshipped Jesus, oh and Jesus didn’t object, therefore he is God, is that what you are trying to say ?
Now you need to understand the term worshipped which is translated from the Greek word <b>"prosekunesan"</b> which is derived from the root word <b>proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. </b> The literal meaning of this word is "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the <b>Strong's concordance </b> for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, <b>selective translation. </b>
<b>We're getting Greek now, are we? Oh, very good. Yes, that word is in greek, and yes, it means to bow, keel, and to prostrate. It also means to worship. But, even if Jesus was being bowed to, crouched before, crawled before, knelt before, or prostrated before, would he not have stopped it, were he not God? Bowing before Jesus IS bowing before God.</b>
How can you explain "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Look at what your Bible says:
<b>"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid." </b>
1 Samuel 25:23-24
When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. this act was repeated several times in the Bible, I could quote many verses if you wish…
<b>David was a king. You bow before kings. It's only right. You don't worship them. Who was Jesus king of, to get this secular prostration?</b>
The word "Worship" also means <b>"to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore"</b> (see Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). Doesn’t really mean that this man worship Jesus as God… still you have no provide any thing to proof Jesus’ divinity.
<b>Is that the challenge now? I thought all I had to do was find the one verse?</b>
Using God’s name (if that was really His name) does not mean that he himself is God.
<b>That was the challenge. To find a single verse where Jesus said he was God. You've basically said I've done that. He used God's name in reference to himself. He called himself God.</b>
Or else why he commanded you to worship and serve the father <b>ONLY</b>?
<b>So people wouldn't get confused. Like you obviously have done. I'll break it down for you. Jesus shows and displays all the majesty and power of God. He has existed from eternity, he healed the sick, raised the dead, walked on water, had power over storms, etc. And he says "give all glory to God", but does not object when people call Him God, or when people worship him. He also uses the ancient name of God in reference to himself. Why? Because he doesn't want people to think that there are two gods, but one God, ancient and eternal. This God is in three persons, but it doesn't make it two gods, or three gods. If Jesus had said "worship me as well", then there is a significant danger that people would have worshipped them separately, and had two gods. Which we do not. We have one God, co-existent, and co-eternal.</b>
Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime told anyone to worship him. It was others who did that. Quite the contrary, whenever Jesus (pbuh) spoke of worship, he always attributed it to God and never himself: <b>"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"</b>
Luke 4:8. Notice the words: "<b>Him ONLY</b>." Jesus did not say<b> "US only," or "Him and I only</b>."
<b>They're both God.</b>
How could he possibly make it more clear than that? What abstract meaning are we now going to concoct for this verse to show that what Jesus "<b>really" meant was "worship BOTH of us"? </b>
<b>Because they're one God. I know Muslimsl in general can't see that as anything but polytheism, but that's where it is right there.</b>
Salam
Wael