09-29-2006, 04:58 AM
Bismillah:
Of course am aware of this verse, in fact I have discussed this same verse with ‘curious Christian’ before, but here we go again.
First you must understand that "before Abraham was I am" is not the same as "worship me!"
<b>That wasn't the challenge. You asked us to find a single verse where Jesus said he was God OR where he said "worship me". I found one of those. Can't change the rules now. If he's God, you would agree that he is worthy of worship.</b>
The fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would you say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and <b>Melchizedec</b> Hebrews 7:3, who were supposedly present not only before Abraham pbuh, <b>but also before all of creation</b>? What about the many others who were either<b> anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? </b>
<b>Proverbs 8 </b>
<b>The person speaking in Proverbs 8: Wisdom. Nice try. Wisdom has every right to exist before the world, and isn't a person.</b>
<b>Hebrews 7</b>
<b>Melchizadek was around before Abraham. He was dead long before the arrival of Christ. His eternality, lack of parents, etc, is to show his difference from the priesthood of Aaron. Jesus was a priest, but not a levite, whose rules for succession were based on geneology. Jesus was a priest from the eternal order of Melchizadek, which is not based on time or on descendency.</b>
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in <b>John 9:9</b>, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty!!!! (Astaghfurullah). Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?
You must see the difference between saying "I am" in reference to a question, "are you that guy", and "I AM" in reference to being in existence before Abraham. Someone uses the name of God, and uses it in reference to eternal existence. Not the same thing.<b></b>
Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God?
Naturally not. And you know that isn't the case. Not everyone who says these two words is God. But, in the context of the issues posed to Jesus at the time, that was his message. You disagree.<b></b>
Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (which was Jesus) he replied:
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17 NOT GOD, and not even GOD THE SON... but a prophet.
Read a little further. Jesus tells him who he is: "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "And who is he, sir? Tell me so I may believe in Him" Jesus said to him, "you have seen him. And the one speaking with you is He." He said, "Lord, I believe." and he WORSHIPPED HIM" (John 9:35-38). After Jesus reveals who he is, the beggar worships him. Jesus does not correct him. The worship comes naturally.<b></b>
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us<b> "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"</b>
Jesus uses the exact same words that God used in the Old Testament to say that is how he would be known forever and ever. Can it be any clearer? That's the name God Himself chose. Jesus used it. You don't think it means that Jesus is God. He would disagree.<b></b>
Is it so impossible for us to bring one clear verse like for example Isaiah 66:23 where Jesus HIMSELF also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right to say it plainly that he is God.
He did. I just referred to it. He used the Name God Himself used. I call that clear. Not inference. If it was as casual as something that had already been said about several other people, why would those listening have wanted to stone Him after he said it<b></b>
The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God <b>explicitly</b> commands mankind to worship his son, where God <b>explicitly</b> threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth...
<b>Why is it necessary: </b>
1-For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and
2- for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father." ?????
while it is NOT necessary:
1- For Jesus pbuh to explicitly command us to worship him, or
2- for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Last verse, from the end of the Gospel of John: "Thomas answered him 'My Lord and MY GOD!' Jesus said to him, 'have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have yet come to believe'". If Jesus was not God, he would not have credited Thomas, would he?<b></b>
Jesus is God. God is worthy of worship. That means Jesus is worthy of worship. Logical argument. I have shown where Jesus said he was God, and you would agree that God is worthy of worship. Either you say that Jesus was not saying he was God, or you are saying that God is not worthy of worship. I figure it will be the first one. Needless to say, I have brought forth the verse you were looking for. I assume the challenge is over now.