Let the debate begin-Round One

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Have you considered John 8:58

Of course am aware of this verse, in fact I have discussed this same verse with ‘curious Christian’ before, but here we go again.

"I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "Before Abraham was born, I Am".

First you must understand that "before Abraham was I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would you say about <b>Solomon </b> pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and <b>Melchizedec</b> Hebrews 7:3, who were supposedly present not only before Abraham pbuh, <b>but also before all of creation</b>? What about the many others who were either<b> anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? </b>


<b>Proverbs 8 </b>

8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.


8:23


I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.


8:24


When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.


8:25


Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:


8:26


While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, F32 nor the highest part of the dust of the world.


8:27


When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass F33 upon the face of the depth:


8:28


When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:


8:29


When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:


8:30


Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


8:31


Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

<b>Hebrews 7</b>

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, F19 having neither beginning of days, nor end of life;......

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in <b>John 9:9</b>, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.


"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.


Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty!!!! (Astaghfurullah). Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?


Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was <b>"I am." </b> He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (which was Jesus) he replied:


"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17 <b>NOT GOD, and not even GOD THE SON... but a prophet.</b>


Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.


Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since <b>Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" </b> that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us<b> "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"</b>


Is it so impossible for us to bring one clear verse like for example Isaiah 66:23 where Jesus HIMSELF also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right to say it plainly that he is God. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus <b>explicitly</b> commands his followers to worship him, where God <b>explicitly</b> commands mankind to worship his son, where God <b>explicitly</b> threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth...


<b>Why is it necessary: </b>


1-For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and


2- for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father." ?????


while it is NOT necessary:


1- For Jesus pbuh to explicitly command us to worship him, or


2- for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?


Salam


Wael