Let the debate begin-Round One

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

You mention that because men don't understand the concept of one God in three persons, and in their attempt to understand they label it a mystery,

These are not just <b>'men' </b> Shamms, they are Christian scholars, Bishops, Pope, great thinkers and people who spent their entire life reading and researching. I was not quoting what my Christians friends said about Trinity

First what needs to be addressed is the fact that there are indeed mysteries about God contained in the Bible, and simply because something is a mystery or unknown does not mean it is confusing or man made.

I totally agree, but when it comes to <b>‘central beliefs’</b>, or something that you <b>must believe in it or else you will be lost,</b> then things has to be clear and need not any philosophical explanation and stretching words to suite people’s desires. And until this day <b>no one was able to explain Trinity </b> and <b>no one was able to understand it. </b> , and if you or anyone else claim to understand this concpet, then explain it in a very simple manner for the benefit of those who are not clever.

Wael, you also quote many men who seem to believe that the concept of the trinity is not Biblically taught but added to Christian worship later in history. You quote one such source as saying:
"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the (Trinity) idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One."


(The Paganism in Our Christianity)


My question to you then is: The author of the above states the early Christians "paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and thy recognized the Holy Spirit"


What then are "devotions" and how were they paid to Jesus Christ? And what did the early Christians recognize the Holy Spirit to be?


Well "devotions" as an English word appears in the Bible once, in Acts 17:23:


"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Now "devotion" in Greek is the term "sebasma" and means, according to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "whatever is religiously honoured something adored, an object of worship". If “devotions” were paid to Jesus Christ by the early Christians, then they must have recognized Christ as being one worthy of such worship and did not think it blasphemous to do so. I’ve already shown you evidence that the early Christians recognized the Holy Spirit to be God as is evidenced by the verses quoted before.

First of all, <b>No Christian was able to show me a single verse where Jesus himsef said i am God or where he said worship me</b>, and no where will you find any command to worship the holy spirit. All these verses were refuted during my discussion with CC… if you have sometime, try to read my previous posts and threads about Christianity and bring topic for discussion if you think that am wrong.


Secondly, paying devotions to Jesus <b>does not in anyway make him God</b>. I do pay devotion to my wife too, but guess what? I don’t consider her as God.


And lastly, honoring Jesus <b>does not make him God also</b>; doesn’t he tell you to honor your father and mother? Do you consider your parents as Gods too?

Let’s recap so far: Early Christians recognized God and worshiped him. They also recognized Jesus Christ as the Son of God and worshiped him. They also recognized the Holy Spirit as God.

How??? The concept of the Trinity was originally adopted by Christianity <b>three centuries </b> after the departure of Jesus then how is it possible for the early Christians to know anything about it? You can read some historical books on this fact.


Christians books

This triune nature is indeed found throughout the New Testament. In 2nd Corinthians we read:
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”

You must be kidding me? Where does this verse say that <b>these three persons are ONE and the same thing?</b> And if someone ignorant pray for me that may Muhammad pbuh and God be with you, will you consider that Muhammad pbuh is also God?

Also in 1st Peter we read: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Again, where does this verse say that <b>all of them are ONE GOD?</b> … the only verse which is close to the meaning of trinity is 1 John 5:7 and you can find this verse in the KJV till today, but even this verse was removed by <b>32 scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperating denominations of Christianity </b> because this verse <b>NOT TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE </b> in the original manuscripts.

So simply because the word “trinity” wasn’t used does not mean the doctrine that the word implies was not taught.

We are not looking for <b>a word</b>, but the concept itself. Which is <b>not found in the bible</b>, and all verses provided by Christians are <b>ambiguous, insufficient or impossible. </b>

Wael, you also quote from a book entitled “Should You Believe in the Trinity” I’d like to ask, where did you find this book? Who wrote it? When was it published?

It was published by Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania and yes it is belongs to Jehovah’s Witness cult… but I was not convincing you by what they believe regarding Trinity!! I was only <b>quoting</b> from their booklet what well known personalities <b>WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SECT </b> said about Trinity. Now these quotations can be found in many other sources if you don’t like reading this book.


You can read Encyclopedia Britannica regarding the council of Nicaea, Daily News, U.K talking about Trinity and divinity of Jesus, Commentary on the Holy Bible by J. R., dummelow, The History of the Christian in the Light of Modern Knowledge by T.G. Tucker, Jesus Christ is not God, American Christian Press by Victor Paul Wierwille, A History of the Christian Church, The Early Church by Henry Chadwick, The Church in History by B.K. Kuiper, and many others.

Once again I believe you aren’t being honest or forthcoming in this conversation we’re having.

<b>Judge not, and ye shall not be judged</b>….
Luke 6:37


Honesty is a part of our faith, Alhamdulelah. It is not my intention to be dishonest or else I will not deserve to be a Muslim.


So instead of talking about something you don’t know, just focus on Trinity and <b>prove it if you can</b>.


Salam


Wael.