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wel_mel_2 · 07-03-2006, 02:05 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:1) I've never counted the attributes of God in the Bible but there are much more than 99. Also you say that the name of God should not conjue up an image. Doesn't the word "Allah" conjure up an image to those you profess his name?

First of all, the Bible does not give more than 99 attributes to God, you can hardly find about 30 or so. Or maybe I don’t know. But anyways, this is not our topic.

The question here whether the name Allah conjure up a mental picture which is obviously not. We never think of any image when we say in the name of ALLAH. Unlike the Christians when they say in the name of the Father, you immediately think of someone who is a man (because Christians believe that God is a man but in Islam God has got no gender), and when you say in the name of the son, you are thinking of another man who is handsome with blue eyes like “Jeffery hunter”. in the movie King of Kings And when you say in the name of the Holy Spirit, you are thinking of something like a dove which descended upon Jesus during his baptismal. You have got 3 distinct pictures and those pictures can never be one CC. you see 3 pictures and but you pray to one God that is impossible to me.

Quote:2) I completely agree with your idea of God here. Again, we disagree in the end because Jesus is God. Who can forgive sins Wel Mel? Only God can, yet we see that Jesus forgave sins. Who can command the oceans and the storms? Only God can. Yet we see that Jesus did so.

I might agree with you that Jesus “maybe” forgives sins. But did he do that on hi own? Now if you can read the Bible with little understanding you will come to know that the power of forgiving sins was given to him by God Almighty and it was not his own power.

note what Jesus says when he forgave sin:

Mark 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

Notice Jesus tells the scribe that on earth Jesus had the power to forgive sins, so therefore we must now ask ourselves the question, from where did Jesus get this power? Did Jesus own this power? Let us see what Jesus said about who gave him this power, and once doing so, we shall fully grasp the context:

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

As you see, Jesus himself stated that ALL THINGS that were given to him were FROM GOD. This means that all the miracles Jesus did were from God, so the fact that Jesus could forgive sin was because the Father had given him this great miracle, it was the Father who gave Jesus this mighty power to forgive sin.

Once we know this crucial information it completely eliminates any thought of Jesus having any divinity because of doing such a mighty miracle. Had Jesus had the power from himself, and did this miracle by himself, then the Christians would have a very good case, sadly this is not how reality is. The reality is that the Father gave Jesus this mighty power and miracle, and if Jesus was really God, he would not need to be given such a mighty power, he would OWN IT, the fact he does not own it shows he is not God, and shows there is nothing divine about performing such a great miracle.

God grants miracles to all his prophets, shall we say each prophet is divine now for doing several amazing super-natural works? Off course not, so why do Christians do it for Jesus? Such inconsistency is very strange, and shows the Christians really have no case on showing Jesus is God.

Quote:3) I agree. I don't believe that God has a physical body like ours. When we are created "in his image" we were given some of his attributes. Such as the ability to create art for example (which sets us apart from all other animals). Further we were created in his image in that we know good from evil. Jesus, while he dwelt on this earth, did have a body. But nothing in the bible tells us that God has a literal bodily form. We know from the bible that God is everywhere. Christians do not worship God as a human.

Jesus had a body, but God has no physical body… therefore Jesus is NOT GOD.

now the topic again is turing from “Monotheism” to “Is Jesus God?” Sister Muslimah is going to ban both of us. so SHUUU ;)

Quote:4) There is but one God. The Bible teaches us that God is three persons. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. From the creation account to Revelation the nature of God is revealed as Triune. This doesn't mean a plurality. I realize that Islam rejects the Trinity so we differ there.

I see no trinity in the Bible also. Please note that in 325C.E., the Trinitarian church set forth the doctrine of CO-EQUALITY, CO-ETERNITY, AND CONSUBSTANTIALITY of the second person of the trinity with the Father.

The doctrine became known as the Creed of Nicea. But they also went on to develop the doctrine of "blind faith." This is because those who developed the "Trinity" doctrine were unable to define it in any manner that could not be refuted by the unwavering Unitarians Christians through the Bible. In the beginning they tried to defend the "Trinity" through logic and the Bible. This continued for a long time until the Trinitarian church finally gave up on ever substantiating their claims through the Bible. So they demanded blind faith in their doctrines. Anyone who did not believe blindly and dared to question them would be branded a heretic and tortured or killed. The following is only a small sampling of the verses of the Bible which refute this definition:

"... my Father is greater than I" John 14:28

Obviously if God the Father is greater than God the son (Jesus) (pbuh) then they can not be equal. Also you may read:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

If Jesus and God were equal then it follows that they will be equal in knowledge. But as you can see, God is greater in knowledge than Jesus (pbuh). 

It is just obvious CC. don’t stick to doctrines and try to open your eyes for the truth. May Allah show you the right path Ameen.

Quote:5) Obviously there is a stark contrast here to was the Quran says and what the bible says. The Bible as we've discussed before demonstrates that Jesus is God.

Alhamdulelah I refuted each and every claim that Christian made to prove that Jesus is God. but you cant accept the reality.

Quote:'“Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” – John 20:28'

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." – Revelation 4:11 (the words of the 24 elders to Jesus).

“…Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28

“…the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” – Titus 2:13

“…To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours” – 2 Peter 1:1

“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved…. for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” – Romans 10:9,13. Note: Paul reveals Jesus to be the same “Lord” referred to in Joel 2:32, which he quotes. In Joel 2:32, “LORD” is Jehovah/Yahweh.

Just because Jesus was called lord you concluded that he is God?

In the Bible we find that this was a common practice with many others besides Jesus. For example:

Prophet Abraham:"Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord (Abraham) being old also?" Genesis 18:12

Esau: "And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:"Genesis 32:4

Joseph: "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Genesis 44:20

David: "And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid." 1 Samuel 25:24

Regarding to the statement of Thomas where he address Jesus as My God…am sorry to say that this is an ignorance of the context of the verse and of Christian doctrine prompts this claim. The context of the verse talks about an unbelieving Thomas being surprised when Jesus offers him evidence.

The exclamation, "My God," on his part was just astonishment. We use such exclamations everyday while talking to people. This doesn't mean that the person we are talking to is God. For example, I see John cutting his wrist with a Rambo knife. I say: "My God, John what are you doing?" Do I mean that John is God? Of course not. Similar is the use of the expression by Thomas. If you go into Jewish or Muslim societies even today, you'll hear people exclaim "My God, my Lord," at every situation which surprises them or causes them anguish or is astonishing. In the verse above Thomas says: "My God, my Lord." He was not claiming that Jesus was his God and Lord. If he did then the church and the disciples should have stamped him as a heretic right there and then. Because claiming that Jesus is Lord and God is a violation of Christian doctrine, which asserts that there is One God, the Father and One Lord, Jesus. Jesus can't be God and Lord. "...yet for us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord, Jesus Christ ...(
I Corinthians 8:6)". Believing the above (i.e Jesus is Lord and God) would leave a person with unorthodox doctrine branded by the church as Sabellianism, Patripassianism, Monarchianism

Salam

Wael.

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