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wel_mel_2 · 06-19-2006, 02:10 AM

BismillahL

Quote:In about 4 different threads there are some questions raised by Wael and Muslimah which apparently I hadn't been clear enough in my answers. Rather than trying to keep up with the different threads I wanted to address them here.
1) The Trinity

I have posted several examples already of where the Bible clearly teaches that God is Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit. However I wanted to provide some more biblical proof of the matter.

Am sorry CC, not to upset you but really until now you did not show me any example or verses from the Bible teaches that God is Jesus. All the verses you posted I already clarifes that they could mean something else. They are ALL not explicit.

Quote:First, there is but one God.
 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.(Deut 6:4)

 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.(1 Cor 8: 4-6)

10 But the LORD is the true God; 

he is the living God, the eternal King.

When he is angry, the earth trembles;

the nations cannot endure his wrath. (Jer 10:10)

Next we see that there are three persons in the Godhead. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one(1 John 5:7-8)

This verse was removed from the RSV as fabrication and interpolation not to be found in the original manuscripts. of course you will say those scholars who removed this verse are not true Christians.

Quote:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[c] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”(Matt 3:16-17)

We don’t disagree on the term "son" which means servant of God in the Hebrew. (many people were called son of God in the Bible and yet they were not considered to be Gods) the term son does NOT literally mean 'son'. And even if Jesus was literally ‘son of God’ that would not make him God.

Quote:30 I and My Father are one.”(John 10:30)
Again...it is clear that Jesus is claiming to be God here. It is nonsense to think otherwise and ignorant at that. The Jews following Jesus statement clearly knew that Jesus said that he was God. That is why they wanted to stone him. The better defense to this passage Wael, is not to claim that Jesus didn't say that he was God, rather to say that this is one of the verses made up by Christians in an effort to deify Christ. I wouldn't believe that either, but that is more believable. Read the passage in context.

I already explain this more than 5 times. It is impossible interpretation. Am not going to repeat what I said again. But surely john 10:30 is not proof at all that Jesus is God.

Quote:2) Are God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirt equal?
Yes they are. Examine the following which show that they are equal in name:

3 And one cried to another and said:

“ Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;

The whole earth is full of His glory!”

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 So I said:

“ Woe is me, for I am undone!

Because I am a man of unclean lips,

And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;

For my eyes have seen the King,

The LORD of hosts.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:

“ Behold, this has touched your lips;

Your iniquity is taken away,

And your sin purged.”

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:

“ Whom shall I send,

And who will go for Us?”

Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” (Isa 6:3-8)

Now compare to the following:

41 These things Isaiah said when[h] he saw His glory and spoke of Him(John 12:41)

24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers(Acts 28:25)


20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life(1 John 5:20)


3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”(Acts 5:3-4)


The Following Show that the three in the Godhead are equal in attributes:


 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it(John 1)


6 For unto us a Child is born, 


Unto us a Son is given; 


And the government will be upon His shoulder. 


And His name will be called 


Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, 


Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.(Isiah 9:6)


23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.(John 2:24:25)


10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.(1 Cor 2:10-11)


The following show that the three in the Godhead are equal in works:


16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.(Col. 1:16)


2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.(Gen 1:2)


Also, too many to reference, but Jesus continually forgave sins in the NT. You know that only God can forgive sins.

You know also that Jesus can do nothing of his own self. Whatever he hears from Almighty God he follows. So even if he "forgive sin", it is not his own will but the will of the father which is God. I can show you also plenty of verses where Jesus say I CAN DO NOTHING of my ownself i wonder how can you call him God if he can simply do NOTHING.. Still no proof at all.

Quote:You also see such as in the following that the Godhead was worshiped as three in one from the very beginning and by the decree of the Son.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.(Matt 28)

CC, English is your mother tounge, how could you conclude that Jesus is God from the above verse? He said all authority is GIVEN to me. means its not his own. all power is given to him by whom? By God of course. so he is not God CC.

Quote:It's time for dinner.

enjoy your meal.


Salam


Wael.

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