06-15-2006, 06:13 AM
Bismillah:
Quote:Wel Mel, of course you can explain your viewpoint. I may not agree with it and I may think that you are wrong and misguided but I still want to get your Muslim perspective.
Thanks CC
First I didn’t answer the part where you say in one of your posts that Jesus was NOT created and that he was the creator. So let us analyze together from the Bible whether this right or wrong.
as you know, God is eternal. and if I ask you "Could God create another God?" the answer will be a definite no. Because God is eternal and is not a creation. Now when we read the Bible we see that Jesus was created, and If Jesus was a creation then he cannot be the Creator and therefore cannot be God.
Romans 9:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, <b>that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.</b>
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, <b>the firstborn of every creature:</b>
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, <b>the beginning of the creation of God;</b>
How can Jesus be <b>the first born and the beginning of creation </b>
if he was the Creator?
Also the New Testament, Acts 13:33 to be precise quotes a verse from the Old Testament...
Psalms 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; <b>this day have I begotten thee</b>.
The New Testament authors says that this verse is referring to Jesus. But look at the verse. The Lord said, <b>"THIS DAY, have I begotten thee" </b>
So Jesus became the begotten Son of God on <b>a certain day</b>. Therefore, he is not the eternal Son of God, which then leaves us to the undeniable conclusion that Jesus is not God.
Ok coming to <b>I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.</b>
Before I forget, <b>NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DID JESUS SAY I AND AM MY FATHER ARE THE SAME.
</b>
This verse, (John 10:30) is always quoted out of context.
The complete passage starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." John 10:23-30
Now ONE in what? In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! <b>They are one in PURPOSE</b>.
Just as <b>no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand. </b>
Need more proof? Then read:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; <b>That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us
</b>: that the world may believe that <b>thou hast sent me</b>. And <b>the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one</b>." John 17:20-22
Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"?
Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:
"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.<b> But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit," </b>
1 Corinthians 6:15-17
And also
<b>"One God </b> and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and <b>in you all</b>." Ephesians 4:6
And
"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the<b> body is not one member, but many." </b> 1 Corinthians 12:12-14
Once you read the above verses and understand what the message was that Paul was trying to get across, then we can begin to understand his words in such places as
<b>"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."</b> Ephesians 4:4
So Jesus is not God by saying he and his father are one. he meant one in purpose and not in nature or essence.
Salam
Wael.