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The Messiah - according to the Jews
#10

Bismillah:




Quote:Thanks for your interest and questions.

CC, first of all, those were not questions, but facts about unfulfilled prophecies found in the Bible. Now your interpretations are very ambiguous and some of them are impossible for any sane person to accept. So let us examine what you just said:




Quote:God punished Cain who was a "tiller of the ground" (Gen. 4 2) for killing his brother Abel. The curse which God put upon Cain in Genesis is largely poetic in nature as it reads. It is similar to when God cursed the serpent (Satan) in Gen 3:15.
Gen 3:14-15 states:



"...On you belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall burise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."


Gen 3:15 is the first prophecy about the coming of Jesus. Did Satan literally "bruise" the heel of Jesus? Did Jesus literally bruise the head of Satan? No. Like much of the Old Testament this is poetic and allegorical.

What all of these has to do with God’s punishment to Cain? I know that God punished him but at the same time he told him that he will never be able to <b>settle</b>
and that he will never be<b> a wanderer</b>.
And what happened after this??? <b>Cain built up a whole City. Means he was settled and of course he was a wanderer. </b>





Quote:Here is what II Kings 24 8-9 says about it.
II Kings 24 8-9



8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. His mother’s name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 9 And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.


According to Babylonian records Jerusalem fell just after those events transpired. Jehoiachin certaintley suffered. And nobody sat after Jehoichin...that is fact. Also, to be so literal...when Jeremiah says "no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin" who is to say that this doesn't refer to the younger???

Again you are taking me far away from what is originally written in Jeremiah. The prophecy clearly said <b>NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SIT ON HIS THRONE. The throne of David. No one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin</b>. But what actually happened that after the death of Jehoiachin <b>later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne’ </b> we don’t need to stretch the words to suite our desires. It is plain English. <b>NO ONE WILL SIT, but later on somebody sat.</b> The Babylonian records shouldn’t be more accurate than the Bible. Am I right?




Quote:Again, like Genesis much is poetic and allegorical. "Emmanuel" means "God With Us." Jesus, being God, was "with us." The original readers of this book would know that Emmanual means "God With Us" and would understand it to mean that the Messiah's coming is upon them. I agree about the word "virgin". In that text "virgin" doesn't necessarily mean "a virgin" as you put it...but it may.

The prophecy said that<b> HE WILL BE CALLED GOD WITH US</b>. Show me one verse where <b>ANYONE called Jesus GOD WITH US. Or even GOD.</b>


he was called Son of man, Son of God, lord, master etc… but <b>nowhere was he called GOD WITH US</b>. Agains your interpretation fall under the ambiguous category.




Quote:The very same Hebrew word "amla" is used in Gen 24:16.
Gen 24:16



16 The girl was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever lain with her. She went down to the spring, filled her jar and came up again.


As you can see...in this instance the Hebrew word "amla" DOES mean an actual virgin....But I thought the Koran states that Jesus was born of a virgin???

Let see what Rabbi Tovia Singer said about the term alma. And pay attention to the last sentence of his explanation.




Quote:The claim that “every place the word alma appears in the Bible it is always referring to a virgin” is incorrect. This is not the first time I have come across a Christian who has made this erroneous assertion; and each and every time I hear it I am puzzled as to why these apologists do not do their research before making this claim. This is especially the case in our modern age where computer technology has made simple word studies so quick and easy to research. I will briefly explain your question for the readers of our website who are unfamiliar with this subject.
For nearly two millennia the church has insisted that the Hebrew word alma can only mean “virgin.” The church must hold this position because Matthew 1:22-23 translates alma in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin.” The first Gospel quotes this well-known verse to provide the only “Old Testament” proof text for the supposed virgin birth of Jesus. The stakes are high for Christendom, because if the Hebrew word alma does not mean virgin, Matthew is misquoting the prophet Isaiah, and both a key tenet of Christianity and the credibility of the first Gospel collapses.


How accurate is this Christian claim? The place to explore this issue is in the Jewish scriptures. If the Hebrew word alma means virgin then each usage in the Bible must be either a clear reference to a virgin or at least be ambiguous. The word alma appears in the Jewish scriptures seven times. If even one reference clearly refers to a woman who is not a virgin, then Matthew’s rendition of Isaiah 7:14 becomes untenable.


One of the places where the uncommon Hebrew word alma appears in the Bible is in Proverbs 30:18-20 which reads,


There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [b’alma]. This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”


In the above three verses, King Solomon compares a man with an alma to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea. What do these three things all have in common? They leave no trace. After the eagle has flown across the sky, determining that the eagle had ever flown there is impossible. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship has moved across the sea, the water comes together behind it and there is no way to tell that a ship had ever passed through there. Similarly, King Solomon informs us that once a man has been with an alma there is also no trace of the fornication that had occurred between them. Therefore, in the following verse (verse 20) King Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman has eaten (a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual activity by exclaiming, “I have done no wrong.” The word alma clearly does not mean virgin.


In the same way that in the English language the words “young woman” have no bearing on whether virginity is present or not, in the Hebrew language there is no relationship between the words alma and virgin. <b> On the contrary, it is usually a young woman who bears children. Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin birth, he would have used the word betulah1 not alma. Betulah is a common word in the Jewish scriptures, and can only mean “virgin.”
</b>


Sincerely yours,


Rabbi Tovia Singer

if you also read the Catholic Encyclopedia on the word Alma we read:




Quote:A Hebrew word signifying <b>a "young woman", unmarried as well as married, and thus distinct from bethulah, </b> "a virgin" (see Hebrew Lexicons)

by the way, as a Muslim, I am a passionate defender of the virgin birth of Christ, and all Muslims should be so. Why? Because this is one of the very important themes in the Qur’an.


The Qur’an tells a great deal about the birth, works, and miracles of Jesus (`Isa in Arabic). His story starts with the angels’ call to Mary (Maryam in Arabic) by which they declare the miracle of God—a son without a father. Mary is surprised:


[she said, “My Lord! How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. When He decides on something, He just says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is.”] (3:47)


There are many passages in the Qur’an in which Mary is highly praised. We read that angels said to her, [“Maryam, God has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you over all other women”] (3:42).


In Chapter 4:156, those who propose [a monstrous slander against Maryam] are cursed. Actually, there is quite a long surah in the Muslim Scripture titled “Maryam” (Mary) in which the nobility of Mary and the virgin birth is told in detail. In another cgaoter, we read,


[Maryam, the daughter of `Imran, who guarded her chastity—We breathed Our Spirit into her and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Book and was one of the devout] (66:12)


These verses make clear that Mary—along with Jesus himself—is a sacred figure for all Muslims. Thus, any disrespect, insult, or attack on Mary or Jesus Christ is directed also toward Islam. We can add Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, and many other Old Testament figures to the list—they are all praised in the Qur’an.




Quote:The Bible...especially the OT as you quoted is as great a historical document as any that exists from that the time in which it was written. Time and time again historical and archeological finds confirm the Bibles historocity. That in itself is a miracle.

What about the Hindu scriptures? have you read them? or Buddha Scriptures... they are also contains prophecies, historical documents and they are very deep. they are even advanced in Science, medicine etc, how about the Nostradamas’ book?.. Will you believe in all these books to be God's words?




Quote:<i>But since you brought up the topic of unfullfilled prophecies I must respectfully ask you about your Quran. </i>
Koran 20:85 and 20:87 state that the calf worshipped by the Israelites at Mt. Horeb was molded by a
<b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Samaritan</b>. The word "Samaritan" was not coined until 722 B.C.--several years after the events recorded in the Exodus?</span>


Koran 2:29 state that Allah created the earth first and then the heavens.



Koran 79:27-30 state that Allah created the heavens and then the earth.


(Koran 96:2)



Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.


(Koran 21:30)


...WE made EVERY (including man) living thing


from water...


(Koran 15:26)


He created man from sounding clay, from mud


moulded into shape...


(Koran 3:59)


...He created him from dust, then said to him


Be and he was.


(Koran 19:67)


But does not man call to mind that WE created


him before out of nothing.


Was man created out of a blood clot, dust, clay, water or nothing??? I didn't post the verse but the Koran also says that man was created from a sperm drop??


(Koran 21:76)



Noah, when he cried to US, aforetime: We listened


to his paryer and delivered him and his family


from great distress.


(Koran 11:42-43)


...And the waves came between them, and the son was


among those overwhelmed in the Flood.


??


What about this?


(Koran 2:62)



Those who believe in the Quran...and the


christians...shall have their reward with their


Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor they shall


grieve.


Granted...those aren't necessarily unfullfilled prophecies in the Quran rather contradictions. I started a new thread here to ask about specific unfullfilled prophecies in the Quran.


Again, I don't mind defending my faith...I hope I mean you no offense.

No offense at all. If you don’t understand the Qur’an that doesn’t mean that the Qur’an is wrong or contains any mistake. ALhamdulelah since the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH until this moment no one was able to point out a single mistake in the Qur’an. however I can see that you have started another thread about the Qur’an so am going to answer your questions regarding the Qur’an in the right place.


Salam


Wael.

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Messages In This Thread
The Messiah - according to the Jews - by wel_mel_2 - 06-01-2006, 02:08 AM
The Messiah - according to the Jews - by PUPPET - 06-06-2006, 11:08 AM
The Messiah - according to the Jews - by PUPPET - 06-07-2006, 01:03 PM

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