03-27-2006, 05:01 PM
Quote:Don, all those verses you have tendered relate to those outside the faith who are being called to the Religion of God. But if a believer at some point turns his back on God that's a different kettle of fish. That's high treason. Here's some verses that relate to the issue;
16.106 Anyone who is forced to deny faith after its acceptance, while his heart remains loyal to the faith shall be absolved; but any who denies faith willingly after its acceptance and open his breast to unbelief, shall incur the wrath of Allah and shall be sternly punished.
<b>But that verse says that one who denies faith willingly and ceases to believe will incur the wrath of Allah. Is it not up to Allah to punish him, if He believes that is what happened?</b>
And in the case of Abdul Rahman, he did not abandon his faith. He merely accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al KitâB) Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."
Quote:16.107 This is because such people love the life of this world more than the hereafter, and that Allah does not guide those who knowingly reject faith.
<b>I agree with that. Do you not agree that He who you call Allah, is the same that I call God? Do we not both know Him and love Him, but just with different practices? Qur'an 2:136 says Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them. Do you not accept that statement from your Holy Book, and do you "make difference between one and another of them"?</b>
Quote:16.108 Such are those whose hearts, ears and eyes are sealed by Allah; and they are the ones who are heedless.
16.109 There is no doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.
The Prophet's Order;
Hadith Bukhari - Narrated by Ikrima
<b>Is this something that is in the Qu'ran (and if so where), or something outside of the Qu'ran? And if it is something outside of the Qu'ran, does it override the Word of Allah? Qur'an 3:3 says It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). We are all "People of the Book" (or ahl al KitâB) Qur'an 3:64 says "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."</b>
Quote:Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of
this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not
have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody
with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Messenger, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'.
<b>But he is not an atheist. He remains among the People of the Book. Qur'an 3:52 says When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.</b>
Quote:The position is clear.
<b>Is it? I have quoted several items from your Holy Book which seem to say that we are all People of the (same) Book. Your Qu'ran may have been written in Arabic, as your Prophet understood what he was told by Allah, and our Holy Bible may have been written in Arameic, Ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Latin as God spoke to many prophets, but it was the same God that was doing the speaking.</b>
Quote:As for the west's position, they want to impose their religion of democracy over God's Law. And the bottom line is the west won't believe that they are fuel for the 'Fire of Hell'.
<b>We believe that Democracy is a better way of running a country than having a dictator controlling it, but id is not a religion. We feel that the individual should be free to select the faith he wishes to follow. Do you really think that Allah likes to have people worship him that do so out of fear that they will be killed if they do not?</b>
And if Qur'an 3:64 is right, and if we are both People of the Book, and hence we are both believers in the same God/Allah, so if you kill a Christian (and especially if you kill another Muslim), Quran 4.93 says "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."
You also seem upset with us. Remember Qur'an 5:82 says "You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant."