05-28-2003, 12:58 PM
As Salam A`ala man itba`al hoda
Pls look at this reply, mind you we are not here to redicule each other, and again I will have to ask you to strictly observe the forum rules. They are basic human manners any way. And in all religions manners are to be respected. If u need to preech for Christianity I doubt that this is the place. You are not here to tell u we are in a tight position. We certainly are not here to challenge each other, but rather to exchange idea. You joing an Islamic forum was your choice. We never forced you or exercised any pressure for you to embrace Islam. therefore, I really hope to see a change in your language around the forum.
In my reply I will neither quote from the Quran nor the Bible, I will just stimulate your mind for a while. Speak logically.
I saw to save you the trouble of looking into another thread:
Hypothetically speaking, I will agree with you (may Allah forgive me) that Jesus is the only son of God who sent him for salvation. In other words, to shoulder mankind sins and expiates them, am I correct?
Let us first tackle this point.
You mean that Jesus was sent to rescue mankind from their sins, fine, does that apply on the people who lived during that era, does the effect extend until now? If it does extend, what happens when people kill, fornicate, steal or whatever? And here I mean just Christians of course. Will they still be forgiven due to the crucifixion of Jesus?
Now again let go back to our core of interest, Jesus being the son of God. In simple words I think this could create major conflict and contradiction to the believer. We agree that God has to be of a super incomparable power so as to be capable of creating the universe and maintaining continuous dominance over everything eternally. We also agree that God must be Eternal with no beginning or ending. So having a child will make this God have a part of the human characteristic including paternal emotions and others. This certainly demeans the Divine image I think.
Again, fine I agree with you. But the whole issue was to send God’s son as a last messenger to call people for proper worship and free them from sins. Why did he have to go through full human kind birth? I mean why he started as an embryo, regardless of course of the duration of pregnancy of Mariam, and then came to the world through normal birth. Don’t you agree with me that God could have just sent him as a grown up man? I think this would have been more adequate as a son of God. It would have been also more effective for people.
Another significant point as well is that Christians (as Jews do not believe in either Mohamed SAW or Issa peace be upon him) do not believe in Prophet Mohamed (prayer and peace be upon him). Under their belief I understand their situation. Since if God sacrificed His own son (while may Allah forgive me He is not obliged of course to sacrifice anything to have His own servants believe in Him) so it is only useless to send any more messengers.
Do you think that the Lord would love His servants more than the son?
Will he accept to be defeated by his servants when they killed his own son?
How come he was incapable of defending and rescuing his son?
The most puzzling part is what is coming (at this point I’ll quote from the Bible):
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=M...ish&version=NIV
The Genealogy of Jesus
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[1] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.[2]
The Birth of Jesus Christ
18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[3] because he will save his people from their sins."
22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[4] --which means, "God with us."
24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Read the contents of the above-mentioned link carefully, I'm sure you did before.
Now the Catholic sect believes in Jesus as the son of God while the Orthodox and Protestant churches perceive him as God himself.
Ok in both cases how come his genealogy is traced through human beings all the way. Only until the end when they explain that Virgin Mary was pregnant with him through holy spirit. So if this was the case why do they ascribe him to Abraham at the beginning until after fourteen and fourteen more generations to Joseph? The husband of Virgin Mary. They still call her virgin Mary, although according to the same page, they say she did not come to union with Joseph after marriage until she gave birth, which means that she did afterwards.
We may add that assuming Jesus (prayer and peace be upon him) was either God or son of God, ok when he was put on the cross and until he went out of his grave, who managed the universe?. Who was in charge at that time span? What puzzles me as well is that in all cases the sacrifice went in vain. Assuming that he sacrificed himself or his only son to expiate people's sins and have them believe in him. Yet there remained people who did not, us Muslims and Jews. So a God must have had a better way to show us the road. A stronger way.