An Open Discussion Among Muslim And Non Muslim Members Here

[wel_mel_2]

Assalamo Ala manitab'al- huda.


amikula..

This is my thinking: if God is all-powerful, then surely he is not constrained by time.
Let me ask you this: how can God listen to the prayers of thousands of people in different places in the world, all at the same time? How can God sustain our vast universe at the same time? How is it that God can tell the future to prophets in who are the present?


God can enter into our frame of time whenever He wants to, and He can be in different places at the same time. Isn't it possible, therefore, that God could both appear in human form as Jesus, at the *same* time as upholding the universe?

why dont you let your Bible iterpret itself ?


the new testament refers many times to Jesus as God's servant, see mathew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased......


now read Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAS approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


i dont know if you can see the difference now between the words MAN and GOD.


how then could Jesus (pbuh) be God's servant and God at the same time ? if God can do ANYTHING as you claimed, then He should use His Godly character to explain to us and not to leave us confuse like that.. remeber your Bible also said that God is not the author of confusion. and yet TRINITY confused everybody.. so who is the author of this confusion ?


also read this please.. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast SENT ME.


now you will deduce that if God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost form one unity of the Trinity, then with the disciples included they should form a God unity of FIFTEEN (15) persons and not only three..


now its better if you quote us from the lips of Jesus Christ (pbuh) where he say i am God in human form or i am God incarnate or where doese he say worship me, open your Bible and check out the teaching of Jesus Christ concerning this matter. i just want ONE VERSE, and again please quote ONLY verses which Jesus (pbuh) himself is the speaker.. not somebody else interpretation.


at this point let me mention what the Qur'an says about Trinity.. 5:73


"they disbelieve who say: Allah is one of three "in trinity" for there is no god except One God. if they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them."


is this not what is mentioned in the Law (Torah/Old testament) of Moses whithin the meaning of the first commandment- the oneness of God, which Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfill, as conveyed strongly in John 5


46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.


47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Moses (pbuh) spoke of no trinity, neither did Jesus! sso why should you?

So really it comes down to God's justice... he had to find a way to be perfectly just, while at the same time forgiving sinful humans. It is my belief that through Jesus, God was able to do this... to forgive everyone who believes in Jesus, yet retain his complete justice. It is a complicated topic, so just ask if you want me to clarify it.

again let your bible speak of itself..


did any one of the disciples or the writers of the Gospel see the crucifixion or the resurrection ? the answer is NO..


in Mark 14:50 it says the disciples forsook jesus and fled, Even peter forsook jesus after the cock crowed three times as Jesus foretold in Mathew 26:75.


# 2 you remember the prayers of Jesus to God for help in Luke 22


42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God according to Luke 22:43 and Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;


therefore if all of Jesus's prayers were accepted by God, including not to die on the cross, how could he have died on the cross ?????


and lastly.. do you know that the doctrine of atonment was accepted by the church three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth ? read Deureronomy 24:16, Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekil 18:20 and you will see that this doctrine of atonement contradicts the old law of Moses..


Deuteronomy 24


16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


Jeremiah 31


30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: .............


Ezekiel 18


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Further Jesus states in Mark 11:25-26 and in Luke 11:1-4 that trespasses "sins" are forgiven by God. so there is no reason for Jesus' atonement of sins.


Mark 11


25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.


26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


Luke 11


1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.


2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.


3 Give us day by day our daily bread.


4 And FORGIVE US OUR SINS; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


once again Jesus came not to destroy the law, it was Paul who abolished the Mosaic Law, please read Acts 13


39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


The 'authority' that paul amassed allowed him to claim that the blessings of the Gospel were not limited to the jews, but to all who believed. this also is an absolute contradiction to the mission, purpose and teaching of Jesus. Jesus' true message was the law. the same law that guided Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah and all the other prophets, to include the prophet of Isalm Muhammad who was also prophesied in the jews and the christians gospels as mentioned in the Qur'an.


and enough for now i hope that help Inshaa ALlah.


salam


wel_mel